ootpou issue

[bschr682]

every sim i take a lil bit of time and take a look at the top performances of the sim. Since the switch to ootpou the top performances seem a bit off to me. Anyone else notice this? How does my guy Sam Jones make the list over either of Jacinto Merino Jr or Chandler Orm. Thats just one example of many ive seen since the switch.

[recte44]

Again, if you have issues with OOTPOU please visit the OOTPOU thread at the OOTP forums and bring them up with the developer. This is NOTHING I can control.

[Al-Hoot]

Not sure, but

Sam Jones 9 runs + 8 rbi = 17 RP (run production, a stat I just made up)
Sadahara Oh 6 runs + 8 rni = 14 RP

Merino 6 runs + 3 rbis = 9 RP
Orm 6 runs + 4 rbis - 10 RP

Orm hit .405 and Merino .325, but obviously *actually* had way less RP than Sam Jones.

And as for TB, Orm had only 1 more, and Merino 2 more, than Jones.

Of course this is just raw stats, and I've no idea how the players' "raw stats" contributed to winning each particular game.



Hank Greenberg said the most important stat in baseball is the RBI. And this coming from a guy who could hit home runs. There is something to be said for this. Since the goal of the game is to score more runs than the opponent, RP seems pretty important.

That's actual RP, rather than potential RP: the latter might equate to something such as hitting .405 and scoring only 6 times and knocking in 4 runs.

[cheekimonk]

Yeah, I don't know how the dev's algorithm calculates that. Sunderland had a .500 AVG w/ 4 HRs and 1.1+ OPS sim before last and wasn't in top performances.

[bschr682]

RBI's are a pretty useless stat by itself in my opinion. Guys have to be on base to get rbi's so it doesnt really seem like a stat a player can control by himself. OPS is a much better evaluator of plate performance i think.

[Al-Hoot]

RBI's are a pretty useless stat by itself in my opinion. Guys have to be on base to get rbi's so it doesnt really seem like a stat a player can control by himself. OPS is a much better evaluator of plate performance i think.

True, a player can't control how many players are on base when he comes to bat.

What I think Greenberg meant, though, was that the RBI was the most important statistic in the real world, as it represented actual run production. Even a player on a team with a great line up may not be that valuable if he does not drive runners in, no matter his AVG, OBP, SLG, OPS...

Conversely, a player on a sucky team who has, say, 80 rbis, may be having a much better year than someone with 80 rbis on a much better team.

A problem with percentage-based stats such as OPS is that they can be more of a measure of a player's potential value than how much RP (run production) he actually had for his team.

And I would also think that =any= stat can be "written off" by saying, well, it was based on the quality of the player's teammates, or something out of the player's control. Baseball is a team game, so all individual stats are gonna be team-biased.

[bschr682]

batting average has nothing to do with ur teammates. nor does OPS. But it is true that in the end all that matters is how many runs are scored since thats how the game is won after all.

[cheekimonk]

Yeah, I appreciate Sabers but there's a reason the "legacy percentage" stats have stayed around for as long as they have. If average was just (PAs where the batter didn't make an out) / (total PAs) then you'd have a point, but it's made more meaningful by taking out walks and errors (the latter meaning that there is always subjectively analyzing whether the hitter "earned" his was on base). OBP is AVG + free passes, and SLG also has a subjective component that makes it more meaningful (just because a hitter reached second base doesn't mean he hit a double). Therefore, OPS is meaningful, too, it was just never calculated until the last couple of decades because it's pretty obvious.

WHIP and ERA are also isolated to the pitchers performance by the same subjective scoring - what was a hit and what was an earned run. I do think IBB should not be included in WHIP, but I was a pitcher so I'm biased.

Having said all that, runs produced IS a more important measurement than anything else, but RBI and R don't capture that as there are factors that can't be mitigated by a subjective scorer (where a guy hits in the order, the production behind him when he does get on base, etc.). That's why Bill James came up with "runs created" (RC) which is in OOTP on the Expanded Batting Stats views as RC/27 (runs created per 27 outs). James actually takes that even further with the creation of win shares which combines RC with a hitter's fielding - because if you're going to say the #1 goal is to create runs, I can counter that the #1 goal is to win games - but win shares is still pretty controversial.

[Al-Hoot]

I am not quite sure what you are saying when you mean "subjective." And I am not quite getting what you are saying overall.

But neither WHIP nor ERA are isolated to pitcher: there is always defense and ballpark to consider.

[bschr682]

pitcher stats are really really hard to nail down imho. Once the pitcher lets that ball go, how much control does he really have? and as pointed out above the ballpark and defense can make a world of a difference. an average pitcher can look fabulous pitching in PETCO and look atrocious pitching in a hitters bandbox like Miller Park. I think its very hard to get a good idea of how good a pitcher is based on stats. Batter stats are much better defined but i spose there are gray areas there too. Power numbers are heavily influenced by park effects. just a thought.

[cheekimonk]

I am not quite sure what you are saying when you mean "subjective." And I am not quite getting what you are saying overall.

But neither WHIP nor ERA are isolated to pitcher: there is always defense and ballpark to consider.

This is what I'm getting at:

AVG, WHIP, and ERA have hits and earned runs as components. Earned runs, however, rely on hits vs. errors, so even ERA boils down to hits. You're saying that hits are affected by defense (if batter A faces better defenses, he will have a lower AVG than batter B who faces weaker ones). While that's obvious, the impact of different defenses is actually reduced dramatically by baseball's use of a subjective scorer: a ball put in play is either a hit, an out, an error, or an excellent play that results in an out on what should have been a hit. Scorers determine errors and they do so based on whether the specific defensive player in question should have been expected to make the play. Because of that the effect of defense is evened out over time. As for excellent plays they are rare enough to not have a significant impact...over a season they don't take enough hits away from a player (or players) to make a huge difference.