Multiple Debate Items(Salary Cap, Media Revenue, Minimum Ticket Price, Stats, Salary Retention)

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Re: Multiple Debate Items(Salary Cap, Media Revenue, Minimum Ticket Price, Stats, Salary Retention)

Post by bcslouck » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:22 am

League average at the moment appears to be roughly $63M. Not sure if that's local and national combined in reports, but that's a decent place to start.
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Re: Multiple Debate Items(Salary Cap, Media Revenue, Minimum Ticket Price, Stats, Salary Retention)

Post by RonCo » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:28 am

bcslouck wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:22 am
League average at the moment appears to be roughly $63M. Not sure if that's local and national combined in reports, but that's a decent place to start.
League average was rock-solid at $59M for about a decade, then jumped up to $63M the last four seasons. My guess is we'll wind up about there.
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Re: Multiple Debate Items(Salary Cap, Media Revenue, Minimum Ticket Price, Stats, Salary Retention)

Post by RonCo » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:34 am

bcslouck wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:18 am
RonCo wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:37 pm
1) Its more complex to enact than changing a simple setting. So Matt will need to do a bit of work
Is it? From what I've seen, it's as simple as setting the revenue for the team and just maxing out the contract time. It'll take a half hour (tops) to do once.

As for 2, I'm fine with giving a notice and I'd say just average out what they are league wide now and go from there.
"Complex" my be the wrong word...but yes, to make this happen Matt needs to go into each team's base settings and adjust the Local Contracts (National Contracts are just a single change, but local contracts go with each team--hence the problem). And, yes, the settings are the rate as well as making the years on the contract huge. SO two values per team need to be manually altered.

Perhaps that's not complex, but it's tedious work....maybe, say, 2 minutes per team plus some review/testing to make sure it was all done properly. So, say an hour? That's not absolutely odoriferous, but it's also not a quick jump-in and flip a switch.
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Re: Multiple Debate Items(Salary Cap, Media Revenue, Minimum Ticket Price, Stats, Salary Retention)

Post by GoldenOne » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:43 am

niles08 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:59 am

1.) The bottom of the league and top of the league for revenue could/should be much closer.
2.) Media Revenue needs to be the same for each team.
3.) Eliminate the hard salary cap with penalties.
4.) Eliminate salary retention.
5.) Change ratings to a 1-5 system rather than 1-10, eliminate overall actual/potential ratings.
1) While I agree with the notion, I've also learned in my 7 seasons that, and Ron reminds us of this often, this is mainly a financial game. While I think I was maybe getting Nashville on track, I wanted to start fresh with Charlotte and am trying to focus as much as I can on the money part of the game. I kind of like trying to figure out this part of the game. I've also had some help and, while not necessarily coaching, at least a few folks have offered some advice. I think it wouldnt hurt, for even some guys that have been around for a while, to maybe have some discussions with a few of the other guys on how to maybe "fix" their team and get them on a better path. It never hurts to reach out to someone else and see what they might be thinking either. I've had guys reach out unsolicited and even just the slightest thing has helped out a lot.
2) Sounds like this may already be OBE (that's overcome by events for those not "in the know.")
3) I think the cap has room for some adjustments, maybe (mainly based on the contract asking prices lately) but that's another story and one that has been discussed quite a bit in the past. I think the issue is that the smaller revenue teams struggle to get above their budget more so than worrying about the cap number. I worked hard in Nashville to get my budget up to the level of the salary cap - and that was without taking into account paying coaches and any bonuses that I had to pay out or Misc costs for cutting players, etc. Again, a financial issue that is hard to hurdle over, but it can be done.
-- Perhaps there can be a way for a team to get a "loan" of sorts? We have a Bailout Plan for PPTs, maybe there can be something for straight up cash influxes?
4) I actually like retention. I think it gives the smaller market teams a way to stockpile younger, cheaper talent, and, if they are planning it out right, gives them the ability to get those guys up to the BBA at the right time to maybe make the playoffs at least and get that extra influx of cash that can help for the next season.
5) I'm good with how it is. Would be okay with a little more vagueness like a 1-5 system would bring. And while I like the concept of a stats-only league, I just dont have the time in my life for what that would entail. I do use the actual/overall to get a quick sense of things but I do also delve into the stats (as well as the intangibles) when making decisions on guys, within my organization and when looking at guys on other teams.
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Re: Multiple Debate Items(Salary Cap, Media Revenue, Minimum Ticket Price, Stats, Salary Retention)

Post by bschr682 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:49 am

You already can trade PP for money and/or budget
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Re: Multiple Debate Items(Salary Cap, Media Revenue, Minimum Ticket Price, Stats, Salary Retention)

Post by GoldenOne » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:57 am

bschr682 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:49 am
You already can trade PP for money and/or budget
I get that but the guys that seem like they could use the help also dont have a lot of PPTs as well.

Probably a dumb idea; just throwing it out there.
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Re: Multiple Debate Items(Salary Cap, Media Revenue, Minimum Ticket Price, Stats, Salary Retention)

Post by RonCo » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:13 am

Just to state the obvious...
1.) The bottom of the league and top of the league for revenue could/should be much closer.
2.) Media Revenue needs to be the same for each team.
These two are effectively the same thing. A large part of the variance in revenue/budget for each team is tied up in the gap between local media contracts--which was at one time in the recent past about $15M, and is now about $25M. Regardless, the overall revenue gap between teams today is about $80M today, so standardizing media contracts would shrink that gap by roughly 30%. I think that would still keep a competitive gap, meaning it would still be important to play the revenue system to win.
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Re: Multiple Debate Items(Salary Cap, Media Revenue, Minimum Ticket Price, Stats, Salary Retention)

Post by bschr682 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:14 am

I’d advise against making any changes except maybe getting rid of salary retention. The league is just in a weird spot due to the super drafts. It’ll settle after awhile.
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Re: Multiple Debate Items(Salary Cap, Media Revenue, Minimum Ticket Price, Stats, Salary Retention)

Post by RonCo » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:18 am

bschr682 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:14 am
I’d advise against making any changes except maybe getting rid of salary retention. The league is just in a weird spot due to the super drafts. It’ll settle after awhile.
I think the two changes that are viable in the above conversation are the media contracts and retention.

- While I'm mostly on your side, I do think the league as a whole leans toward keeping retention, though I'd guess there may be an event that will change that view coming in the future.
- The media contract standardization is something we've been talking about on the Governing Board for many seasons. I think it's bigger than the super drafts.
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Re: Multiple Debate Items(Salary Cap, Media Revenue, Minimum Ticket Price, Stats, Salary Retention)

Post by bcslouck » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:43 am

RonCo wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:34 am
"Complex" my be the wrong word...but yes, to make this happen Matt needs to go into each team's base settings and adjust the Local Contracts (National Contracts are just a single change, but local contracts go with each team--hence the problem). And, yes, the settings are the rate as well as making the years on the contract huge. SO two values per team need to be manually altered.

Perhaps that's not complex, but it's tedious work....maybe, say, 2 minutes per team plus some review/testing to make sure it was all done properly. So, say an hour? That's not absolutely odoriferous, but it's also not a quick jump-in and flip a switch.
I don't think it'd take an hour. I was messing with financials on a test league this weekend and had to do the same process. Took maybe 20 minutes for 36 teams in 2 different leagues. I'd wager a half hour tops and it's pretty easy to check. I can tell you setting the contracts to a 1000 years will work and you won't have to worry about it a long time.

I'd think if he sets the National Media baseline before financials reset for the next year, that'd be one less number to input. But I'm not sure if OOTP works like that. Might even work for Local. Local didn't in my case so it'd be better to set the baseline and just check the teams.
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Re: Multiple Debate Items(Salary Cap, Media Revenue, Minimum Ticket Price, Stats, Salary Retention)

Post by bcslouck » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:44 am

I am also in the camp of things are weird overall and just let it work itself out.
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Re: Multiple Debate Items(Salary Cap, Media Revenue, Minimum Ticket Price, Stats, Salary Retention)

Post by bschr682 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:56 am

I feel like we are inching closer to an NBA style economic system. Not necessarily a bad thing I spose but I don’t see what all the hubbub is about.
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Re: Multiple Debate Items(Salary Cap, Media Revenue, Minimum Ticket Price, Stats, Salary Retention)

Post by RonCo » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:08 am

bcslouck wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:43 am
I'd think if he sets the National Media baseline before financials reset for the next year, that'd be one less number to input. But I'm not sure if OOTP works like that. Might even work for Local. Local didn't in my case so it'd be better to set the baseline and just check the teams.
The national media contracts are already set as a constant.
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Re: Multiple Debate Items(Salary Cap, Media Revenue, Minimum Ticket Price, Stats, Salary Retention)

Post by RonCo » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:13 am

bschr682 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:56 am
I feel like we are inching closer to an NBA style economic system. Not necessarily a bad thing I spose but I don’t see what all the hubbub is about.
The main things setting the contracts to standard values will accomplish are:

1) The top five or eight teams will top out at $140-$150M budgets (rather than $150-$160M)
2) The bottom ten or so teams will be closer to being able to use their full salary cap (we have eight teams with sub $110M budgets today, which isn't unusual).

Otherwise, there will be very little change.
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Re: Multiple Debate Items(Salary Cap, Media Revenue, Minimum Ticket Price, Stats, Salary Retention)

Post by recte44 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:19 pm

I was able to get Nashville’s finances in a good place in one season. It can be done.
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Re: Multiple Debate Items(Salary Cap, Media Revenue, Minimum Ticket Price, Stats, Salary Retention)

Post by RonCo » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:24 pm

Yeah, it certainly can be done. I've said a whole bunch of times ... I decided I wanted to be in this league because I thought it was the absolute best basic arrangement of a competitive environment I'd seen when I went out shopping. I don't want to mess too much with anything. All this really does is cap the top end of the most successful teams and make it a little harder to keep a run going.

I say that because the bottom teams will still be strapped to a degree, and if you don't know how to run a team, it will still be hard to fix things at the bottom. :)
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Re: Multiple Debate Items(Salary Cap, Media Revenue, Minimum Ticket Price, Stats, Salary Retention)

Post by RonCo » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:25 pm

Worst case, we try it for a few years and don't like it.
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Re: Multiple Debate Items(Salary Cap, Media Revenue, Minimum Ticket Price, Stats, Salary Retention)

Post by recte44 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:02 pm

There’s a solution to be found here
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Re: Multiple Debate Items(Salary Cap, Media Revenue, Minimum Ticket Price, Stats, Salary Retention)

Post by CTBrewCrew » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:23 pm

RonCo wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:22 pm
Salary Retention: I admit I've never been a big fan of retention in the first place, but those who wanted it seemed fervent in their desires. I want to say they were arguing that salary retention would help rebuilding teams because they could essentially sell their cap space--which, for example, is what Madison did (and got three pretty good cheap pitchers while doing it...I mean, everyone is bitching about Madison paying for Raider, but no one is talking about 21 yo Declan Hounsel who is putting up 2.4 WAR on the cheap for Madison--received with one of those pitchers from trading Dalrymple later).

On a raw value basis, Madison probably got the "worth" of their salary cap dollars in return. They weren't winning now anyway...but I digress.

I don't like retention for the social issues it raises. We have a hard enough time agreeing on the value of 18 year olds in the IC, better yet the value of cap space in the middle of a pennant run. On the other hand, personally its more a "shrug" thing to me. At the end of the day, it's not being used a whole lot anyway. Of course, if four or five bottom dwellers all decided to give away "free" resources at the same time, I could see revolution in the air. :)

Salary retention can be seen either way - for the dalrymple trade salary retention was for 1 season only. it worked for both of us - brett and i talked back and forth before pulling the trigger. I have no problem with that type of retention. as a franchise i wasn’t going to win so trading him and retaining his salary allowed me to get some additional prospects in return. LV ended up renegotiate with him and extended him - so In this instance cap retention worked. Yes Hounsel made the jump from AA to BBA from where i got him last season. His assent happened quicker than I anticipated. So it was a win-win.

I have no issue with retaining salary for one season (or remainder of). I have concerns when it’s longer. If anything it should be modified. If the team wants to retain salary for said player in a trade it should be capped for the season the player was traded in. I will use the raider trade as an example

When the previous GM did the trade with Edmonton then agreed to retain 100% of salary for 3 years (45m) - o by the way another all star game bonus for good measure. (I would have asked for the farm if i was gm and maintaining 45m).

This kinda reminds me of a man named Landley...Lyle Landley and a town named Springfield.

[bbvideo] [/bbvideo]

To boot he leaves the league (much like the argument of going for broke with no cap) leaving the new GM (me) with 45m in dead cap space over 3 years. Look what went down was totally legal - there is no rule restricting It. Yes Edmontons cap is now 135m for the duration of the raider trade, but again there is not rule forbidding this “soft increase” of the cap. Its a loophole he took advantage of. kudos for being a smart GM.

What i would like to have seen in the raider trade - (and going forward) is only the current year of the players salary could be retained. This would still allow for sweeting the deal for additional prospects by maintaining some. However for the remaining years of traded players contact/salary would be picked up by the new team. If they can’t afford him by either shedding additional payroll or dipping into their cash pool of 20m (maybe) to use - the player becomes a FA.

My .02
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Re: Multiple Debate Items(Salary Cap, Media Revenue, Minimum Ticket Price, Stats, Salary Retention)

Post by RonCo » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:12 pm

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

I'm fine with all the arguments against retention. That's not really my point here.

Could Will have gotten more by retaining $45M worth of salary (plus the bodies he moved)? Probably. Almost certainly. But that's not my point, either.

Did Edmonton help themselves more than Madison? Almost certainly at this point (though at the time Raider was also a fairly high injury risk--and it's reasonable to think that Raider was not moveable without retaining a large part of his salary...maybe I'm wrong there, but it's not an unreasonable view). That's not my point either, though.

My point was that Will had a plan, and made a deal that got him further along that plan. He was essentially holding a fire sale, and when you hold a fire sale you often find yourself selling for discount. He was not planning to win for a couple years, and in the process of the two moves Madison got prospects for players and part of his salary cap (that's what salary retention is, really...dealing salary cap). Those prospects are just now beginning to make their impact, and Madison is just now getting to the point where real contention is possible. In that way the plan he had worked.

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Also, I'll not badmouth Will. He had been around for two+ seasons as a very active UMEBA guy. He was a good GM, and I'd be happy to have him back if his time freed up.

Remember--in my perfect world, there would be no retention--but if it's there, we need to be discussing the overall value of contracts, or at least keep in mind that Madison got something in the deal, and that something is just now beginning to provide value on the field.

FInally, realize also that Machiavelli was not particularly good for Edmonton, and he was another guy who Madison paid for. I don't hear anyone noting that part of the deal, too.

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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