Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

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Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by RonCo » Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:34 pm

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Here's the place to talk about the career of:

Dusty Rhodes
(First Base/DH)
Accomplishments
Active Career2026-2042 (17 seasons)
Landis Champ2038
AwardsPuckett
All-Star5-Times
Hall of Fame Metrics:
CategoryScoreAvg HoF
JAWS28.456
BLACK INK4422
GRAY INK131110
HoF STANDARDS5253
Hof Monitor192128
Hall of Fame Voting History:
YearScore
204455.2%
# Rhodes was the topic of a notorious Feature that suggested he might, maybe be over-rated. That said, 3,470 hits goes a long way toward saying that no, he has not been over-rated. He'll end up at #7 on the all-time list, and you'd have to go all the way down to #22 (fellow candidate Steve Dempsey) to find a guy on that list who didn't make it. Of couse, the almost 3K of those hits were singles. I mean. all those hits and they add up to 31.7 WAR--partially due to the fact that the guy did not play defense.

So, yeah? Will he make it in? Only the voters know.
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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by bcslouck » Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:29 am

Look at those metrics! Lines up very well. That and all those hits a yes for me, dog.
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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by 7teen » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:36 am

Yes. Not even a second thought.
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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by indiansfan » Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:10 pm

Absolutely yes. Almost 3500 hits
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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by jleddy » Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:08 pm

:popcorn:
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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by recte44 » Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:23 pm

You gotta

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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by aaronweiner » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:28 pm

You don't have to ask me. And if he makes it in I feel awfully vindicated.

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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by JimBob2232 » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:30 pm

3500 hits. 6th all time. More than Gillstrom. yes.

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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by RonCo » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:37 pm

Less valuable than Zebidiah Williams.
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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by RonCo » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:41 pm

William's turned 1,185 singles and walks into doubles and triples.
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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by Ted » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:49 pm

Dusty Rhodes is a first baseman or DH. Answer this. Was there any point in his career he was considered one of the most feared hitters it the game? Was there any point when you would have taken him over all but 4 to 6 other 1B/DH in the league? Because, as a player who adds no value with his glove, the answer to that question has to be yes if you are going to put him in the hall of fame. And it has to be for 4 or 5 seasons at a minimum.

I know my answer to that question. It's a resounding no. I defy anyone to put together an argument with actual objective statistical analysis that proves he was one of the most feared hitters in the league at 1B/DH for a stretch of 4 to 5 seasons. That should be the minimum argument for getting into the Hall based on only offense. I don't care that he hit nearly 3000 singles and 500 or so more XBH. For his career, he was an above average hitter. For a long time. That's it. At a position where you need exceptional hitters.

I don't have a vote. But dammit I'll die on this hill. If a player isn't the among the best of the best at his position for a long time, he doesn't belong in the Hall.
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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by Ted » Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:01 pm

This is an odd way of looking at it, but demand never even drove his AAV above 14 mil. No one wanted Rhodes enough to pay him big time money. At any point in his career. He hit free agency at age 30. He signed 4 FA deals. No one wanted him enough to pay him. And we are calling him a lock for he hall of fame based on one statistic? That's pretty weak.

I get that there are hallowed thresholds. But we are well past the way the game was looked at when those marks were established. We are better now. Secondly, the BBA is not MLB. Assumption that the same difficulty or inherent value in those thresholds exists is an error.

But go ahead, water down the hall with players that were never in high demand or considered the best in the game at any point in their careers.
Last edited by Ted on Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by RonCo » Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:51 pm

Technically, as an ex-GM I think you do get a vote if you want one.

Maybe I'm wrong.
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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by aaronweiner » Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:11 am

Longevity has to play into this. A .330 average for a year or two isn’t historically noteworthy. To do it for 2 decades is a unique skill. Simply put, by having Rhodes you guaranteed yourself he’d get a hit one out of every three times at bat. There’s a reason he was a starter that long.

And counting stats matter.

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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by Ted » Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:45 am

aaronweiner wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:11 am
Longevity has to play into this. A .330 average for a year or two isn’t historically noteworthy. To do it for 2 decades is a unique skill. Simply put, by having Rhodes you guaranteed yourself he’d get a hit one out of every three times at bat. There’s a reason he was a starter that long.

And counting stats matter.
The idea that 3000 hits is an automatic lock for the hall of fame is based on the fact that in the MLB, no one got to 3000 hits without being one of the very very best in the league.

Rhodes has literally proven that isn't the case in the BBA. He is impossible to find a real life comparison for, because our league environment is so weird. 3500 hits and only 250 or so homers and only 500 total xbh out of a first baseman is pathetic. That's why his WAR sucks. He is a video game player in the truest sense of the term.

You say counting stats matter. Okay. WAR is a counting stat. His stinks so bad compared to hall of famers that to consider him is a silly. His homer total for first base/dH is so bad that to put him in the hall is ridiculous.

You can't just pick one counting stat and ignore the other ones. You shouldn't get so hung up on one aspect of a player, that you ignore the glaring flaws in the rest of his game.

When you look at his rate based stats, the only one he has is that batting average, and it's all singles. His iso power for his career is .100. His career OPS is .809. Freaking barely over .800. That's just plain bad for a a 1B/DH. Tell me, if you had a 1B or DH with an .809 OPS, would you be satisfied with that? Or would you be looking for a replacement? So, let me get this right, we're saying this guy is a Hall of famer because he's a no glove 1B/DH who if you looked at any stat besides his batting average, you'd immediately look for an upgrade?

To get back to the point I made first. He was NEVER, at ANY point in his career a player you'd say "Oh man, if so and so was in free agency, he'd get PAID." He was among the elite hitters in the league ONE time. ONE. SINGLE. TIME. His second season in the league.

All Rhodes did, was hit lots and lots and lots of singles at a very high rate. In a modern baseball league in real life, Rhodes only gets 2/3rds to 3/4ths of the PA's he accrued, simply because no one in their right mind would run a sub .800 OPS bat out there at 1B or DH over and over, and that's what he was for half his career.

All this being said, I really don't care if he gets into the Hall. He's so weird at least you can see the reason he's in. He can hang out next to Jim Wilson in the Hall of "I don't deserve to be here but I broke a traditional milestone." (Full disclosure: Jim Wilson was on the ballot when I got here and I pushed for him to be in based on his 500 HR. I was wrong. I didn't understand at that time how a video game can allow for really odd statistical compilation because of ratings oddities, league environment stuff, and managerial decisions).

If you want to put him in the Hall to celebrate the weirdness that can happen in a video game, I suppose that's a decent reason. He is unique. And we all know who he is. But he's not an all time great player. So you have to be comfortable knowingly putting not all time great players into the Hall. I'm not. But if you are, that's cool too. It's down to the question of what the Hall is for. I think it should be a place for the best of the best. The truly great players. There are other ways to look at it.
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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by aaronweiner » Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:42 am

It's a Hall of Fame. There's no way that Rhodes, with a 15 year career and a .330 average, isn't famous for doing exactly that, being on the batting average leaderboards most years of his career. He'd be a little bit legendary for having a .330 average and like almost literally never striking out. Pitchers would brag that they struck out Dusty Rhodes.

Tony Gwynn and Mark Grace are good comparison points. One's in the Hall, and one never made it close to 3000 hits but led MLB in hits in the 1990s. Greg Maddux never struck out Tony Gwynn.

Rhodes, in MLB, would be in sixth place in hits and in the modern BBA, he's seventh. Literally everyone else on the sorted front page in the top 20 is in there, or will be this year (Ridder and He's a Hall of Famer. I'll be voting for him every year.

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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by aaronweiner » Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:45 am

In fact, I would propose to you that Dusty Rhodes is exactly the ballplayer that a "purist" would look at and say "all your sabermetric bullshit doesn't matter at all, because this guy hit .330 for his career and never struck out. I'd take him in a second."

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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by Ted » Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:01 am

aaronweiner wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:45 am
In fact, I would propose to you that Dusty Rhodes is exactly the ballplayer that a "purist" would look at and say "all your sabermetric bullshit doesn't matter at all, because this guy hit .330 for his career and never struck out. I'd take him in a second."
Tony Gwynn
.338/.388/.459 132 wRC+ 65 WAR in the outfield

Dusty Rhodes
.331/.376/.433 114 wRC+ 31.7 WAR at 1B/DH

Gwynn was a far superior hitter, played a tougher defensive position, and provided literally more than twice the value that Rhodes did. Do not compare them.

MArk Grace isn't in the hall. And wasn't even considered really. So yeah, maybe he's a great comparison.

All those "purists" no longer have jobs because the saber guys kicked the shit out of their outdated nonsense.
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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by RonCo » Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:08 am

I'm fine if someone wants to actually vote Rhodes in. I'm not going to, but if you like him, vote him. But he's no Mark Grace or Tony Gwynn.

Tony Gwynn: 69.2 WAR, OPS+ 132
Mark Grace: 46.4 WAR, OPS+ 119
Dusty Rhodes: 31.7 WAR, OPS+ 114

Both Gwynn and Grace could hit doubles (and in Gwynn's case, triples) a ton more often than Rhodes.

Here's that original article: Is Dusty Rhodes overrated?
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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by Ted » Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:16 am

RonCo wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:08 am
I'm fine if someone wants to actually vote Rhodes in. I'm not going to, but if you like him, vote him. But he's no Mark Grace or Tony Gwynn.

Tony Gwynn: 69.2 WAR, OPS+ 132
Mark Grace: 46.4 WAR, OPS+ 119
Dusty Rhodes: 31.7 WAR, OPS+ 114

Both Gwynn and Grace could hit doubles (and in Gwynn's case, triples) a ton more often than Rhodes.

Here's that original article: Is Dusty Rhodes overrated?
Yeah, and I'm actually fine too if Rhodes gets in. Sort of. I mean, he is a unicorn. I just don't like the idea of people thinking he should get in based on the value he provided to teams. I can't control what people think obviously, but I can try really hard to convince you of what I believe to be true about how baseball works.
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