2002 Hall of Fame Final Tally

jcrmoon42 · Post by **jcrmoon42** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:53 pm

This was some of the craziest voting we have ever had with 9 of the 15 players on the ballot getting at least one first place vote. No candidate had the 529 required points, but by rule the top vote getter is elected. The top four vote getters were within 11 points of one another, and two of them even found their way into last place on a ballot or two. Literally every ballot counted, and the vote came down to the last ballot as Omaha snuck in just under the gun, leaving only Phoenix as the team without a vote. And by virtue of his second place standing on Omaha's ballot, slugging left fielder Joe Belinda is elected to the Hall, striking a win for fans of counting stats as his 508 homers undoubtedly got him lots of attention. Donnie Rotten came oh so close, only 3 points behind Belinda with Heath Rockefeller and Gunga Oogolagunga close behind Rotten. Gunga actually garnered 7 first place votes, the most in the balloting, but ten of the voters put him eighth or lower on their ballot, eliminating the advantage those votes gained. Still, in voting this close, if one voter who put him fourth had put him second, he would have been elected.

Here is the final tally.

Joe Belinda - (1)-4, (2)-5, (3)-2, (4)-3, (6)-1, (8)-1, (9)-1, (11)-3, (14)-2, (15)-1, Total - 497
Donnie Rotten - (1)-2, (2)-4, (3)-5, (4)-3, (5)-2, (6)-5, (7)-1, (8)-1, Total - 494
Heath Rockefeller - (1)-3, (2)-4, (3)-4, (4)-2, (5)-3, (6)-1, (7)-1, (8)-1, (9)-1, (13)-3, Total - 489
Gunga Oogolagunga - (1)-7, (4)-3, (5)-3, (8)-2, (9)-2, (10)-2, (120-2, (15)-2, Total - 486
Glen Groves - (1)-1, (2)-3, (3)-3, (5)-3, (6)-2, (7)-1, (8)-3, (9)-1, (10)-2, (13)-1, (14)-1, (15)-2, Total - 378
Hank Daniels - (1)-2, (3)-2, (4)-2, (6)-2, (7)-4, (8)-1, (10)-3, (11)-2, (12)-2, (13)-2, (14)-1, Total - 340
Rashardo Menne, Jr. - (1)-2, (3)-4, (4)-1, (5)-2, (7)-1, (8)-2, (9)-2, (10)-1, (12)-1, (14)-4, (15)-3, Total - 340
Kevin Haubert - (1)-1, (2)-1, (3)-1, (4)-4, (6)-2, (7)-4, (8)-1, (10)-1, (11)-1, (12)-1, (13)-3, (14)-3, Total - 318
Sam Kirkpatrick - (2)-1, (3)-1, (4)-1, (5)-2, (7)-5, (8)-2, (9)-2, (10)-3, (11)-4, (12)-1, (14)-1, Total - 290
Jack Maverick - (4)-2, (5)-3, (6)-5, (8)-2, (9)-3, (10)-1, (11)-3, (13)-3, (14)-1, Total - 268
Hayden Finch - (1)-1, (2)-1, (5)-1, (6)-1, (7)-2, (9)-2, (10)-1, (11)-2, (12)-5, (13)-1, (14)-3, (15)-3, Total - 258
Archie Ayrault - (2)-2, (4)-1, (5)-1, (7)-2, (10)-4, (11)-4, (12)-4, (13)-1, (14)-1, (15)-3, Total - 253
Braggo Franco - (2)-1, (3)-1, (5)-1, (6)-2, (7)-1, (8)-3, (9)-2, (100-1, (11)-1, (12)-2, (13)-5, (15)-3, Total - 252
Evander Kilkenny - (2)-1, (5)-1, (8)-2, (90-4, (10)-3, (11)-1, (12)-3, (13)-3, (14)-3, (15)-2, Total - 225
Mark Everett - (4)-1, (5)-1, (6)-2, (7)-1, (8)-2, (9)-3, (10)-1, (11)-2, (12)-2, (13)-1, (14)-3, (15)-4, Total - 218

blake · Post by **blake** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:20 pm

A lot of people obviously didn't study the stats in very much detail. Theres no justification for a lot of these votes. I think we should reconsider how we do this voting. It's a very tedious process and I don't think people can handle ranking 15 players properly.

blake · Post by **blake** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:33 pm

I mean how does Rotten only get two first place votes? A SS with 475 HR's and a career .503 SLG gets only 2 first place votes.

Al-Hoot · Post by **Al-Hoot** » Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:00 pm

blake wrote:A lot of people obviously didn't study the stats in very much detail. Theres no justification for a lot of these votes. I think we should reconsider how we do this voting. It's a very tedious process and I don't think people can handle ranking 15 players properly.

Wow. Sounds kind of elitist, there, Blake.
Especially after all the talk of letting people vote the way they want, and open canvassing for players.

As for Rotten, wasn't it the first time for him on the ballot? His day will come.

blake · Post by **blake** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:27 am

I spent a lot of time studying the stats to try and get it right. If people are casually glancing over the stats and then in a confused way just throwing a list together it's not good. It was a lot of hard work making that list for me personally. It wasn't easy. I had 10 tabs open and I'm cycling back and forth and even studying existing Hall of Famers for comparison purposes.

The way some people vote in online leagues always seems to be way off. You get crazy votes for POTY, BOTY all the time for some reason.

cheekimonk · Post by **cheekimonk** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:19 am

blake wrote:I spent a lot of time studying the stats to try and get it right. If people are casually glancing over the stats and then in a confused way just throwing a list together it's not good. It was a lot of hard work making that list for me personally. It wasn't easy. I had 10 tabs open and I'm cycling back and forth and even studying existing Hall of Famers for comparison purposes.

The way some people vote in online leagues always seems to be way off. You get crazy votes for POTY, BOTY all the time for some reason.

It was the same for me, Blake, but maybe we just have different criteria. I know that one of the GMs ticked me off 2 or 3 offseasons ago when he said he ordered candidates for year-end awards by VORP (or WAR or another Saber) and voted 1 - 5 down the list.

In full disclosure, I had Gunga 1st, Groves 2nd, and Rockefeller 3rd.

JimBob2232 · Post by **JimBob2232** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:08 am

Part of the problem is that you are not voting on who deserves to be in the hall of fame, your ranking them in their order of desirability. Thats the reason I put Belinda #1. Anyone who has 500 HRs (and 3rd all time) needs to be in the HOF. Period. Thats not to say others shouldnt be, but I had to get Belinda in now. In my mind, he was the most cut and dry of them all. How someone could rank him 11-15 as 6 people did, is beyond me, but i respect their opinions.

I actually ranked rotten a little low (6th). Its not that he isnt deserving. His 475 home runs alone make him deserving. But its his first time on the ballot, and there are some other really intriguing players too.

I think the player that got the shaft here though is Groves. 2600 hits in a league where only 2 HOFers have reached 3,000. 3 time gold glove winner (more than anyone else under consideration). 176 Triples. He is clearly one of the best all-around players IMO, and thus i ranked him very high.

I think i said this before, which is that my preference would be to switch to an MLB style "vote for those you want to get in" format, but I understand the considerable problems with that in an online format. I just think the top 6 guys on my list are all deserving, and its going to take 8-10 years probably for them all to get inducted, and my opinion on Finch might not match up with others...which is fine!

For the record:
1 Belinda, Joe
2 Groves, Glen
3 Rockefeller, Heath
4 Oogolagunga, Gunga
5 Finch, Hayden
6 Rotten, Donnie

cheekimonk · Post by **cheekimonk** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:16 am

JimBob2232 wrote:Part of the problem is that you are not voting on who deserves to be in the hall of fame, your ranking them in their order of desirability. Thats the reason I put Belinda #1. Anyone who has 500 HRs (and 3rd all time) needs to be in the HOF. Period. Thats not to say others shouldnt be, but I had to get Belinda in now. In my mind, he was the most cut and dry of them all. How someone could rank him 11-15 as 6 people did, is beyond me, but i respect their opinions.

Undoubtedly this!! I had him 4th. Go look at the MBBA HoF on Sortable Stats and check the HR leaders. I felt guilty having him 4th because not only did he hit 508 HR...he did it in 13 freakin' years!! But his AVG and OBP pulled him down a bit for me.

aaronweiner · Post by **aaronweiner** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:04 am

To me, the most interesting result is Gunga. People either put him first or nowhere near the top. I had him first - we have an award named after the guy. I had Donnie Rotten second. Belinda, with his .306 career OBP, I had eleventh.

My full ballot:

Gunga. 1
Rotten 2
Rockafeller 3
Kirkpatrick 4
Butters 5
Finch 6
Daniels 7
Groves 8
Everett 9
Kilkenny 10
Belinda 11
Ayrault 12
Maverick 13
Haubert 14
Franco 15

Rockafeller is one of the most dominant pitchers in the history of the league. Kirkpatrick went to six All-Star games and won two Nebraskas. Rashardo Menne had the highest career OPS of the entire bunch. And Finch had almost 4000 strikeouts and two Nebraskas (and it was close between him and Daniels).

7teen · Post by **7teen** » Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:15 am

My ballot

1. Joe Belinda
2. Donnie Rotten
3. Glen Groves
4. Jack Maverick
5. Gunga Oogalagunga
6. Kevin Haubert
7. Archie Ayrault
8. Rashardo Menne, Jr
9. Heath Rockefeller
10. Hank Daniels
11. Sam Kirkpatrick
12. Hayden Finch
13. Braggo Franco
14. Evander Kilkenny
15. Mark Everett

TimB · Post by **TimB** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:31 pm

I have to confess to finding the HOF vote a combination of fascinating, time consuming and vert tricky for someone of my limited knowledge. I know it's a serious matter for most guys here and didn't want to take it lightly. My ballot in full.
Heath Rockefeller
Donnie Rotten
Rashardo Menne Jr
Kevin Haubert
Sam Kirkpatrick
Joe Belinda
Hank Daniels
Gunga Oogalagunga
Mark Everett
Archie Ayrault
Braggo Franco
Evander Kilkenny
Hayden Finch
Glen Groves

Al-Hoot · Post by **Al-Hoot** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:20 pm

Belinda, Joe 1
Kirkpatrick, Sam 2
Rotten, Donnie 3
Daniels, Hank 4
Franco, Braggo 5
Maverick, Jack 6
Rockefeller, Heath 7
Kilkenny, Evander 8
Oogolagunga, Gunga 9
Daniels, Hank 10
Finch, Hayden 11
Menne, Jr., Rashardo 12
Haubert, Kevin 13
Ayrault, Archie 14
Groves, Glen 15

cheekimonk · Post by **cheekimonk** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:02 pm

Al-Hoot wrote:Belinda, Joe 1
Kirkpatrick, Sam 2
Rotten, Donnie 3
Daniels, Hank 4
Franco, Braggo 5
Maverick, Jack 6
Rockefeller, Heath 7
Kilkenny, Evander 8
Oogolagunga, Gunga 9
Daniels, Hank 10
Finch, Hayden 11
Menne, Jr., Rashardo 12
Haubert, Kevin 13
Ayrault, Archie 14
Groves, Glen 15

Wow @ Gunga and Groves...

blake · Post by **blake** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:15 pm

I still don't get it. Rotten has 600+ more hits, more RBI, 2+ times more walks, more 2B, more 3B, more runs, more SB, better average, and better OBP. All as a shortstop. But Belinda gets in because he has 508 HR's and not 475. If he hits 15 less HR then he probably doesn't make it in.

cheekimonk · Post by **cheekimonk** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:29 pm

blake wrote:I still don't get it. Rotten has 600+ more hits, more RBI, 2+ times more walks, more 2B, more 3B, more runs, more SB, better average, and better OBP. All as a shortstop. But Belinda gets in because he has 508 HR's and not 475. If he hits 15 less HR then he probably doesn't make it in.

As I said in my "mea culpa" thread (which is what this one turned into), the ultimate deciding factor on Rotten for me was that this is his first ballot. That knocked him down at least one slot. Plus, he has the aggregate numbers - no doubting that - but in 19 years. I had to factor that in...

blake · Post by **blake** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:54 pm

bateague wrote:
blake wrote:I still don't get it. Rotten has 600+ more hits, more RBI, 2+ times more walks, more 2B, more 3B, more runs, more SB, better average, and better OBP. All as a shortstop. But Belinda gets in because he has 508 HR's and not 475. If he hits 15 less HR then he probably doesn't make it in.
As I said in my "mea culpa" thread (which is what this one turned into), the ultimate deciding factor on Rotten for me was that this is his first ballot. That knocked him down at least one slot. Plus, he has the aggregate numbers - no doubting that - but in 19 years. I had to factor that in...

Why would it being his first time on the ballot matter? If the guy is the most deserving he should be the one that gets first place votes. The Hall of Fame is supposed to be the best of the best of the best. If we induct just anybody then it loses its integrity.

jcrmoon42 · Post by **jcrmoon42** » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:31 pm

Great discussion, Guys! More of this kind of specific, player-oriented discussion DURING the voting might have led to some people voting differently.

On the topic of the style of ballot we use, it has been widely accepted in all the leagues I've been in for years now. I truly believe that it ultimately does put the best players in the Hall, and it gives numbers of elected players that are very similar to real life. It keeps you from needing any sort of Veteran's Committee, which the standard 75% style ultimately needs. If a guy can't get in after ten years on this ballot, he shouldn't be in.

All that said, I put Belinda last on my ballot. I do NOT think he is a Hall of Famer, and the only thing that puts him in is his high HR total. During his career, he was not even considered one of the best players at his position. He only made ONE All Star game. He doesn't meet any sort of longevity standard as he only played 12 full seasons. A 120 OPS+ as a 1B/LF just isn't that great. One entire half of offensive production, OBP, was completely lost on him with a career .308. He had one great season. Other than that, he was a good hitter, not a dominant Hall of Famer.

But that's just my opinion.

Al-Hoot · Post by **Al-Hoot** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:16 am

No amount of HOF ballot discussion, before, during, or after the voting, is going to change the way I vote. We are here to vote people into the HOF, not discuss them into the HOF. I'm not discouraging discussion, I just won't be part of it, or listen to most of it.

But that is just me and my methodology.

blake · Post by **blake** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:31 am

Fred Mcgriff hit .284/.377/.509 with 494 HR. Hes not in the HOF. Gary Sheffield hit .292/.393 /.514 with 509 HR. Hes fairly borderline. Belinda's .262/.308/.551 with 508 HR I don't think would be close to making it in. By this standard any Dave Kingman type slugger that manages to hack out 500 HR is a Hall of Famer in this league.

JimBob2232 · Post by **JimBob2232** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:12 am

blake wrote:Fred Mcgriff hit .284/.377/.509 with 494 HR. Hes not in the HOF. Gary Sheffield hit .292/.393 /.514 with 509 HR. Hes fairly borderline. Belinda's .262/.308/.551 with 508 HR I don't think would be close to making it in. By this standard any Dave Kingman type slugger that manages to hack out 500 HR is a Hall of Famer in this league.

I think what is critical though is that this isn't MLB. Probably my biggest criteria is "how does player x rank relative to other players in the HOF?". 500 HRs in this league is HOF worthy in this voters opinion. This only gets Really difficult when you have a pitcher who was both a starter and reliever and therefore has no dominating stats that are comparable.

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