2001 Hall of Fame Final Tally

[jcrmoon42]

Congratulations to Benjamin Caldwell, the only player elected to the Hall this year. It was a back and forth race between him and Gunga Oogolagunga. In the end, neither ended up with enough points for election. By rule, that means that the top vote-getter is elected, and that is Caldwell. The man after whom they named the Reliever of the Year Award will have to wait at least another year. Interestingly, all but two voters placed Gunga 8th or above. He was ten points behind Caldwell, meaning that if those two voters had placed him 9th and 10th on their ballots instead of last, Gunga would be in the Hall this year instead.

Voting was all over the place for the next few players on the ballot with votes at both the top and the bottom for players who had great arguments both for and against election. Nobody was automatically removed from next year's ballot, but Davis Birch, who has already been removed and returned to the ballot once before, will be hard pressed to find his way onto the ballot again next year with an extremely poor showing.

Here is the final tally. 414 points would be automatic election.

Benjamin Caldwell - (1)-6, (2)-1, (8)-2, (9)-3, (10)-2, (11)-2, (14)-1, (15)-1, Total - 394
Gunga Oogolagunga - (1)-3, (2)-3, (3)-1, (4)-4, (5)-2, (6)-1, (8)-2, (15)-2, Total - 384
Heath Rockefeller - (1)-3, (2)-2, (3)-1, (5)-3, (6)-1, (9)-1, (10)-1, (11)-1, (12)-1, (13)-1, (14)-1, (15)-2, Total - 332
Joe Belinda - (1)-3, (3)-2, (4)-1, (6)-1, (7)-1, (9)-3, (10)-1, (12)-1, (13)-1, (14)-1, (15)-3, Total - 297
Glen Groves - (2)-3, (3)-1, (4)-4, (5)-1, (6)-2, (7)-2, (8)-2, (11)-2, (15)-1, Total - 293
Jack Maverick - (1)-2, (3)-2, (5)-1, (6)-1, (7)-5, (8)-1, (9)-1, (10)-2, (12)-1, (13)-1, (14)-1, Total - 290
Rashardo Menne, Jr. - (2)-1, (3)-3, (4)-1, (5)-2, (6)-2, (7)-2, (9)-1, (10)-1, (11)-2, (12)-1, (14)-1, (15)-1, Total - 257
Kevin Haubert - (2)-2, (3)-1, (5)-3, (6)-2, (8)-2, (9)-1, (10)-3, (11)-1, (12)-2, (13)-1, Total - 253
Hank Daniels - (2)-1, (3)-2, (4)-3, (5)-2, (7)-1, (8)-1, (9)-1, (11)-2, (12)-2, (13)-1, (14)-2, Total - 243
Sam Kirkpatrick - (2)-1, (3)-1, (5)-2, (6)-2, (7)-2, (8)-1, (10)-2, (11)-1, (12)-2, (13)-3, (14)-1, Total - 221
Braggo Franco - (2)-1, (5)-1, (6)-1, (7)-3, (8)-1, (9)-3, (10)-3, (11)-3, (12)-1, (13)-1, Total - 215
Archie Ayrault - (3)-2, (4)-1, (5)-1, (6)-2, (7)-1, (8)-2, (9)-2, (10)-1, (12)-1, (13)-3, (14)-1, (15)-1, Total - 214
Evander Kilkenny - (2)-2, (6)-2, (7)-1, (8)-2, (9)-2, (10)-2, (12)-2, (13)-1, (14)-4, Total - 214
Hayden Finch - (1)-1, (2)-1, (3)-1, (4)-1, (6)-1, (8)-1, (12)-2, (13)-2, (14)-3, (15)-5, Total - 211
Davis Birch - (3)-1, (4)-3, (8)-1, (11)-4, (12)-2, (13)-3, (14)-2, (15)-2, Total - 178

[blake]

This vote was so difficult. None of them really had qualifications. I'm really strict about who I'd like in the Hall of Fame. Caldwell had a nice career but he didn't really dominate enough. In 81 and 83 he had good years, but the rest are just a little above average. He wasn't a big RBI/SLG guy nor was he a big run scorer. 1407 runs over 18 seasons is only 78 runs a season.

But, on the other side hes a career .318 hitter with 2921 hits over 18 years so thats very impressive. It's real borderline with me for him. My take on the HOF is if theres any question at all then he doesnt deserve to be in there.

[recte44]

Nice. Finally Caldwell gets his due.

[jcrmoon42]

This vote was so difficult. None of them really had qualifications. I'm really strict about who I'd like in the Hall of Fame. Caldwell had a nice career but he didn't really dominate enough. In 81 and 83 he had good years, but the rest are just a little above average. He wasn't a big RBI/SLG guy nor was he a big run scorer. 1407 runs over 18 seasons is only 78 runs a season.

But, on the other side hes a career .318 hitter with 2921 hits over 18 years so thats very impressive. It's real borderline with me for him. My take on the HOF is if theres any question at all then he doesnt deserve to be in there.

He wasn't near the top of my ballot, but I have no issue with him being in. Fifth all-time in hits and three Slick Fielders at third base. Not too shabby, really.

As for the idea that any questions eliminate a player from contention, that is certainly one way of looking at the Hall, and I know a lot of people feel that way. It is the argument in favor of a "small Hall." However, the RL Hall is definitely not that, and I'm personally a fan of allowing players like Caldwell in. The definition of "All Time Great" is subjective.

Personally, I think that if you were one of the couple of best players at your position over a decade or more, you are a HOFer. One of the things I look at strongly is All Star selections for that reason. That is one of several reasons why I keep putting Heath Rockefeller at the top of my ballot. 8 All Star Games in a 12 year career? That's amazing. I also rank Archie Ayrault higher on my ballot than most for similar reasons. A 130 OPS+ for his career, showing power and speed while winning 2 Slick Fielders at second base. He made 7 All Star teams in 14 seasons, meaning that owners saw him as the best at his position 7 times. I don't care what the career totals are. That says HOFer to me.

But, like I said, the definition is subjective.

[recte44]

And always bear in mind putting the numbers in perspective of that era as well.

[Greeney03]

Sorry guys, I wasn't able to vote. I thought I voted on this before. Gunga is definitely my first ballot.

[LambeauLeap]

just pondering....what about a "Veterans Committee" - owners who have been either in both versions to he MBBA or perhaps are the top 3 or 4 in terms of tenure that can vote in a member every 2-3 seasons that may not make it otherwise...

[recte44]

Great idea. And perhaps some of our ex-GM's like Mike Lynch, Ron Churches, Joel would be good to have a voice in this.

[blake]

Personally, I think that if you were one of the couple of best players at your position over a decade or more, you are a HOFer. One of the things I look at strongly is All Star selections for that reason. That is one of several reasons why I keep putting Heath Rockefeller at the top of my ballot. 8 All Star Games in a 12 year career? That's amazing. I also rank Archie Ayrault higher on my ballot than most for similar reasons. A 130 OPS+ for his career, showing power and speed while winning 2 Slick Fielders at second base. He made 7 All Star teams in 14 seasons, meaning that owners saw him as the best at his position 7 times. I don't care what the career totals are. That says HOFer to me.

Yeah, that was one of the things I put into consideration too. Some of those guys were 2B's so you have to judge them against other 2B's and not RF's and 1B's, etc. Caldwell was a 3B and thats usually a power position, so I think thats another thing that hurts his cause.

I try to take into account the era and how dominant they were during the era too. If they were the most dominant of their era, then they should be in regardless of how they compare to other players from different eras. It was hard though. With 15 guys on the list and then you have to compare them against position and era, too. It was hard to do. It was wracking my brain.

[LambeauLeap]

Great idea. And perhaps some of our ex-GM's like Mike Lynch, Ron Churches, Joel would be good to have a voice in this.

Yea, ex-owners, etc. People who would be willing to look. Perhaps not allow one in every year, perhaps every two or three years.

[jcrmoon42]

Fellas, I hate to be a naysayer, but I disagree with the Veteran's Committee idea. This is why.

My reasoning is sort of a compromise between the two extreme positions. In RL, you get 15 years to get elected. Most of the players who could easily be argued to "not belong" were put in by the Vet's Committee. 15 years on a ballot without getting elected is sufficient time to determine whether or not a player should get in.

I think this is even more true with our system. 10 years of being on the ballot, ranked along side the best players of your era, if you deserve to get in, you will get in. Taking these players out of the context of their era makes it too likely that stats alone will determine election rather than comparison to peers.

If you can't get in under this system in 10 seasons, the voters are officially saying you just aren't as good as the 20 or so players who got in during that period. 20 players in a decade is enough.

[jkloes1]

I agree with that. However, on the otherside of the coin, if a player is deemed worthy enough to be on the ballot for 10 years, it means that only a few people per year are better than them. And to be third in voting (for instance) for ten years straight should be good enough to get you in somewhere.

[jcrmoon42]

It really comes down to deciding where the line is on what is "too many" players in the Hall. The argument was made that if there were ANY doubts about a player's inclusion that he should be left out. That is a pretty strict constructionist perspective, and I don't agree with it. On the other side is the Veteran's Committee argument which says that voters missed the boat and that MORE players need to be in. I don't agree with that either.

There is no correct answer. You just have to land somewhere. Personally, I think that 1.5 to 2 players per season is a reasonable number. This system puts that many in. That number allows for the top one or two players at each position in any given decade plus 5-8 pitchers in a decade. Doesn't that seem about right to you?

In the RL Hall of Fame, there have been 109 players elected to the Hall by the BBWAA. The Hall actually started elections in 1936, but the first decade was kind of screwy for a number of reasons. So, looking only from 1947 to now, there have been 96 players elected in 65 seasons. That basically fits with the 1.5 players per season.

The first player was elected by the Veterans' Committee in 1953. Since then, there have been an additional 78 players elected by them. So, there have been 174 players in 65 seasons. That is 2.7 players per year, but I think we would agree that there are many players in who probably don't belong but were put in by the Vets' Committee. So, put that at just over 2 players per year.

I argue that the system we use now, with its 1.5 to 2 players per year on average elected, already has the correct number of players elected and catches the top level guys, such as Benjamin Caldwell, that a 75% vote might miss and a Veterans' Committee would pick up. Adding a veterans' committee would be overkill with the system we have now. Let the voters speak.

And congratulations if you just read all of that.

[Al-Hoot]

And congratulations if you just read all of that.

I read all that, but I haven't yet finished reading Gunga Oogolagunga's name.

[recte44]

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