2027, Hall of Fame Voting Results

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Re: 2027, Hall of Fame Voting Results

Post by agrudez » Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:53 pm

As a side note, how can I look up these retired players in the HTML Reports? When I go to the alphabetized players link it doesn't list them.
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Re: 2027, Hall of Fame Voting Results

Post by RonCo » Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:56 pm

AS Game appearances give a certain amount of information, but I wouldn't use them alone. 3 in 13 is 23% of a player's career. 4 in 12 is 33%. All by itself you can't use that variation to make a bold statement, but it gives you a feel about how the league thought of the player overall. I tend to bake it into the mix of things I assess, hopefully in reasonable proportion.
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Re: 2027, Hall of Fame Voting Results

Post by RonCo » Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:57 pm

agrudez wrote:As a side note, how can I look up these retired players in the HTML Reports? When I go to the alphabetized players link it doesn't list them.

http://montybrewster.net/MBBA/OOTPFiles ... index.html
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Re: 2027, Hall of Fame Voting Results

Post by 7teen » Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:01 pm

Bruner played 2B in the Johnson League at the same time as Puckett and Newhouse. Being the 3rd best 2B at the time wasn't exactly a bad thing.
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Re: 2027, Hall of Fame Voting Results

Post by indiansfan » Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:03 pm

The lack of all star games can also be explained when you are the 2nd best player at a position but keep getting beat out by a sure fire HOFer. For instance Cochran would get beat out by Guzman the first half of his career and Thomas the second half. Not bad company.
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Re: 2027, Hall of Fame Voting Results

Post by RonCo » Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:07 pm

The real thing that makes me (again, a total newb, with no historical background) raise my eyes at Bruner is that his defensive numbers were so pedestrian. For one of the four chief defensive positions on the field, I admit I like to see a bit more there. That's personal preference, though. Otherwise, it's kinda just about lining up the WAR numbers and having at it, I suppose.
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Re: 2027, Hall of Fame Voting Results

Post by RonCo » Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:09 pm

indiansfan wrote:The lack of all star games can also be explained when you are the 2nd best player at a position but keep getting beat out by a sure fire HOFer. For instance Cochran would get beat out by Guzman the first half of his career and Thomas the second half. Not bad company.

More guys go to the AS game than the starters. If you're a HoF player getting beat out by a HoF player, one would expect you would still see your fair share of AS games. Just not as a starter. But, yes, it's an indirect measure.

Also, if you're constantly getting beat out by a HoFer, it's an indicator that you _might_ really be a Hall of the Very Good-er.
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Re: 2027, Hall of Fame Voting Results

Post by 7teen » Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:10 pm

As an owner who has been around since nearly the beginning of the resurgence of the MBWBA (1995-1996 and back again in 2000) I feel connected to the older guys who aren't in the Hall. I think my frame of voting for years has turned into: If Hurley Reyes isn't in, why should Watts be in? Or if Bruner isn't in, why should Martin be in? Same goes for the lack of me voting for a closer into the Hall. Are there better closers than Justin Marco? Some numbers suggest yes. But he has the 3rd most saves all-time and was the closer for the entire decade Madison was making its runs. If he's not in, these other guys don't get in! haha
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Re: 2027, Hall of Fame Voting Results

Post by RonCo » Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:16 pm

Marco's 3.54 ERA is a little high, but he also played at a time when offense seems to have been quite high.

The difference in run environments is also something us OOTP voters have a hard time differentiating.
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Re: 2027, Hall of Fame Voting Results

Post by agrudez » Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:26 pm

Chris, Hogan's FIP was SIXTY FIVE points better than Marco. If you argue that it was a "more offensive era" then his ERA+ was THIRTY TWO points better than Marco. Marco was an above average closer that pitched for a great team for a long time and racked up a huge amount of a largely meaningless stat. Keeping his clear betters out of the hall because people didn't vote for him is you just being salty, man.

PS. Thanks for the link, Ron.
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Re: 2027, Hall of Fame Voting Results

Post by RonCo » Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:49 pm

Yep. Just doing a mini-dive into the data of the top save guys in the league (and not adjusting for era) ... Marco appears to have been very good, but unless ballpark factors provided a big differentiation, there seems to be a gap in base quality of Marco and some others at the top.

- He has a similar ERA as HOFer Meyer, but Meyer has 80 more saves. Huge counting stats do tend to overcome some general weaknesses, and Meyer may prove that. But Marco's saves total is not mosterously greater than other guys with similar save totals. And Meyer's FIP and walk rates are largely better than Marco's too. (Marco's advantages are small, Meyer's are large).
- He has the highest walk rate and HR rate of those on the list.
- He has the highest FIP by a good margin
- He did strike out hitters at a higher rate than any other but Malone

I would say Marco belonged in the conversation, and may well have been fine to be in the hall, but even a guy like Altavista is probably a better candidate (though Altavists didn't throw many innings, so that's a probably limiter).
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Re: 2027, Hall of Fame Voting Results

Post by RonCo » Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:52 pm

I note that the all-time list has Sorensen at 441 saves (stopping his career at 2020), but his player card has him at 490 with a career that spanned through 2024.
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Re: 2027, Hall of Fame Voting Results

Post by 7teen » Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:10 pm

Check out Oogalagunga.... :deadhorse: haha

Ah, its the old man in me being bitter of Marco not getting in. I always felt he was the one guy from those Wolves teams that got snubbed. I'd be less bitter had he or Jessie Wright had gotten in. #GetOffMyLawn
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Re: 2027, Hall of Fame Voting Results

Post by RonCo » Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:14 pm

I can't do anything but agree about Oogalagunga. I really scratched my head on that one. Looks like the league was new and the bubbly was flowing during the vote. :)
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Re: 2027, Hall of Fame Voting Results

Post by bschr682 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:28 pm

In my opinion Marco was not a hall of famer. I was there through almost his entire career. He was good but he never struck me as great.

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Re: 2027, Hall of Fame Voting Results

Post by RonCo » Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:30 pm

RonCo wrote:I note that the all-time list has Sorensen at 441 saves (stopping his career at 2020), but his player card has him at 490 with a career that spanned through 2024.
Interesting...when I go to the HTML career leader boards, the batters pages seem to have updated properly, but the pitcher leaderboards seem to have stopped tabulating after 2020. In game they show up properly in the history reports, though.
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Re: 2027, Hall of Fame Voting Results

Post by RonCo » Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:35 pm

After looking at it with this detail, I'll probably leave Hogan, Quintaro, Malone, and Sorensen on my ballot next year, but remove Altavista. I can be argued out of it, but I'm struggling with a 914 IP pitcher in the hall.
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Re: 2027, Hall of Fame Voting Results

Post by 7teen » Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:23 pm

bschr682 wrote:In my opinion Marco was not a hall of famer. I was there through almost his entire career. He was good but he never struck me as great.
Time to refuel that Madison-Vancouver rivalry now.....
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Re: 2027, Hall of Fame Voting Results

Post by bschr682 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:33 pm

7teen wrote:
bschr682 wrote:In my opinion Marco was not a hall of famer. I was there through almost his entire career. He was good but he never struck me as great.
Time to refuel that Madison-Vancouver rivalry now.....
Wouldn't you rather wait til you aren't paying Salazar almost half your payroll... :P

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Re: 2027, Hall of Fame Voting Results

Post by recte44 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:23 am

Hogan not being in is a travesty.

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