The BBA Today #77 - Prop bets, Potatoes, and Injuries, Oh Mei!

[Ted]

Ron Collins and Ted Schmidt discuss Ted's despair over his Brewster Bucks futures, specifically regarding a some hot potatoes in Boise. Is Hsin Mei a future Hall of Famer? We're not sure, but a couple of guys who recently fell off the ballot probably should have been. How does the catcher workload affect counting stats? Does the BBA have a problem appreciating defensive standouts? We appear to have decided Brooks Robinson doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. Sacramento has suffered from some recent injuries. Is their run in jeopardy? What in the world is going on with Portland's pitching staff? How many questions can I ask in one podcast preview blurb? Listen and find out ... maybe?

GET IT HERE!

[aaronweiner]

Did we just bet on all the same things? I had that one as the under too.

[GoldenOne]

Boycotting this episode based on saying Brooks does not belong in the Hall of Fame.

[Ted]

Boycotting this episode based on saying Brooks does not belong in the Hall of Fame.

I didn't say that. I said as a group that the BBA voters decided that. I voted for our version of Brooks Robinson, and based on his comments, I assume Ron did, too.

[GoldenOne]

Boycotting this episode based on saying Brooks does not belong in the Hall of Fame.

I didn't say that. I said as a group that the BBA voters decided that. I voted for our version of Brooks Robinson, and based on his comments, I assume Ron did, too.

Ah. Mixing worlds got me confused.

[Jwalk100]

Players like Mike Schmidt, Johnny Bench and Mike Piazza have set such a high standard. People don't appreciate anything different or less. They all want tons of homers. They could care less about defense.

Great podcast guys!

[jleddy]

[RonCo]

Per my note on Moreno... viewtopic.php?f=100&t=25526&p=149180#p149180

[CTBrewCrew]

Prop bets you say...

[Rubaboo]

I always have this on when I'm doing stuff. I kept hearing my name and my team name and kept having to rewind to catch what was said.

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I hope I didn't kill Mei... swung the big deal for him, signed him for all the money, did I get out of him what I paid for him? *shrug* Maybe after the Jacksonville trade? He's borderline for me.

I definitely agree on Moreno. Should have been in.

[Ted]

I think the thing about Moreno is that his batting numbers really just don't impress. They are good, but not typical of a HOFer, unless you know how hard it was to hit when he played. Then they seem a little better. By the time he was on the ballot, we had a lot of GMs who simply weren't here when he was one of the marquee players in the league,a cornerstone of those monster Halifax teams, and a key piece on some very good Birmingham squads.

And if you don't dig into the defense, you just don't see the player he was. He was just a superb, franchise type player.

[Fat Nige]

Boxing Day is the 26th here in England

[bcslouck]

We appear to have decided Brooks Robinson doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame.

Reported

[Ted]

We appear to have decided Brooks Robinson doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame.

Reported

It's interesting that there are two takes similar to this and the player that was most similar to him, if I remember correctly topped out in the mid 30% range for voting. It is important that Brooks Robinson played 600 more games than Diego Moreno, but it's not like Moreno had a short career. Robinson just played forever. But for the times they played, they are incredibly similar. Robison's playing forever got him to near inner circle HOF numbers, but it's not like anyone wouldn't have put him in if he had retired 4 seasons earlier. Moreno was a tad better with the bat, Robinson a tad better with the glove.

[aaronweiner]

Robinson was the third best defensive WAR player of all time and just one of five players . He's a unicorn. And I bet without checking you (especially Ted) could give me #1 on that list too, who only had 44 WAR with the bat and is for sure a flippin' Hall of Famer. Pun intended.

That said, you'd get monster bonus points if you knew #2 or #4; you've definitely HEARD of #4 on this list.

How many dWAR did Moreno have?

[usnspecialist]

Robinson was the third best defensive WAR player of all time and just one of five players . He's a unicorn. And I bet without checking you (especially Ted) could give me #1 on that list too, who only had 44 WAR with the bat and is for sure a flippin' Hall of Famer. Pun intended.

That said, you'd get monster bonus points if you knew #2 or #4; you've definitely HEARD of #4 on this list.

How many dWAR did Moreno have?

the guys i guessed were at 6 and 8, damn it.

[Ted]

Robinson was the third best defensive WAR player of all time and just one of five players . He's a unicorn. And I bet without checking you (especially Ted) could give me #1 on that list too, who only had 44 WAR with the bat and is for sure a flippin' Hall of Famer. Pun intended.

That said, you'd get monster bonus points if you knew #2 or #4; you've definitely HEARD of #4 on this list.

How many dWAR did Moreno have?

I knew Cal was #4. I wouldn't have gotten Mark Belanger.

Moreno had 19 dWAR or thereabouts. A previous version of this post had me including his minor league number because OOTP html reports defense stupidly.

Look at these two pages:
https://statspl.us/brewster/reports/new ... _4550.html - Moreno

https://www.fangraphs.com/players/brook ... osition=3B - Robinson

Then lop off the last five years of Robinson's career, and tell me you wouldn't have put him in the Hall of Fame. That's would be about 550 games, 6 dWAR, and 10 WAR. Robison, without the last five years of his career, would have had 550 fewer games and totals of 70 WAR, 30 dWAR, and a 105-110 ish wRC+. Anyone would have said you were insane to not put Brooks Robinson in the Hall even without those last five years.

Moreno had 69.9 WAR, 19 dWAR, and a 114 wRC+

Their career slash lines for people who don't like a park adjusted, playing era adjusted stat like wRC+ were .267/.322/.401 for Robinson, and .289/.344/.439 for Moreno.

Even without the bad hitting years at the end (he was still an amazing fielder) Robinson doesn't eclipse Moreno's offensive slash rates. Robinson played in the worst hitting period in the modern era of MLB, but Moreno can say the same for the BBA, even if it wasn't quite as bad.

So I stand by my argument. Moreno is Brooks Robison with a slightly worse glove, and slightly better bat, by about the same amount. Moreno just played 600 fewer games, and those games were not needed for Robinson to get in the Hall. Moreno should be in.

[RonCo]

That is (best defensive WAR player in OOTP), of course, hard to call since the game doesn't calculate that out. Here, however, are the top 10 career ZR of all time in the BBA:

POS	Name	ZR	EFF
CF	Dash Kelly	244.5	1.098
CF	Juan Heredia	236.8	1.085
SS	Bopper Kengos	215.2	1.044
RF	Al Jones	208.2	1.084
CF	Jorge Rodríguez	200.2	1.071
LF	Mike Love	192.6	1.076
3B	John Wilkinson	189.9	1.09
3B	Diego Moreno	187.5	1.076
1B	Fraser Dodson	176.2	1.086
3B	Tony Franco	169.3	1.045

Interesting, though, if you slice it to only 3B, Moreno comes out ahead (which makes sense, because Wilkinson played a lot of 1B)

POS	Name	ZR	EFF
3B	Diego Moreno	188.1	1.078
3B	John Wilkinson	171.5	1.091
3B	Robb Wells	148.6	1.058
3B	Tony Franco	120.1	1.062
3B	Jake Urban	116.5	1.058
3B	Nick Mannerden	112.9	1.071
3B	Ashton Fontenot	106.3	1.054
3B	Dale Bunker	103.1	1.047
3B	Luis Martínez	101.8	1.065
3B	Robert Jowers	101.5	1.049

Moreno was quite arguably the best defensive 3B of all time in the BBA based on what stats we have at hand, and it's not really very close.

[RonCo]

And, to show our ages, I was on Belanger, but would not have called Ripken.

[Ted]

NM. Minor league numbers get added in stupidly.