Hall of Fame

[Manny]

I was wondering what everyone thought about the Hall of Fame votes this year. I thought Morris might make it this year and I was surprised to see how much support Schilling got.

[agrudez]

This isn't my work, but it very eloquently sums up my own opinion of Morris.

"
Jack Morris is the most overrated pitcher in the history of MLB.

Consider:

1- A career ERA close to 4.00.
2- A WHIP of nearly 1.30
3- Seven seasons with an ERA above 4.00. And, another of 3.96.
4. A career ERA+ of 105. (Jaime Moyer's is 104, and he did that over 25 years vs. 18 for Jack).
5. Never won a Cy Young Award. Never was runner up to Cy Young Award.
6. Only 2 seasons averaging more than 7 K's/9 Inn.
7. A career playoff ERA of 3.80. (Solid, not HOF).
8. Nine of his Eighteen years (half of them), he had an ERA+ of 101 or lower. So, in half of his seasons, he was average or below, compared to the rest of the American League. (For comparison, Jaime Moyer had 9 seasons of an ERA+ of 117 or higher. And 15 seasons with an ERA+ of 105 or higher.)
"

[trmmilwwi]

Knowing absolutely nothing about their stat lines it seems to me that both Schilling and Morris are sentimental picks. No and no from me.

[felipe]

Bah

Statistics and lies! Lies and statistics!

As someone who grew up an hour from tiger stadium, you people will never convince me he's not hall worthy!

[jcrmoon42]

Knowing absolutely nothing about their stat lines it seems to me that both Schilling and Morris are sentimental picks. No and no from me.

Schilling actually has a much stronger argument for being in the Hall, in my opinion.
- Eight times in the top 4 in Pitchers WAR.
- Ten times in the top 10 in fewest walks per nine AND ten times in the top 10 for most Ks per nine.
- Fifteenth all time in career strikeouts, and every eligible player ahead of him is in.
- Second all time, and first in the modern era, in K:BB ratio.
- His 127 ERA+ is the same as Tom Seaver and Bob Gibson.
- Every eligible modern starter with more than 130 points on the Hall of Fame Monitor is in. Schilling is at 171. Ahead of 41 Hall of Famers, including Juan Marichal, Rube Waddell and Don Drysdale.
- 24th All Time on the JAWS meter, 3.6 ahead of the average HOFer, among eligible, modern starters. The top 30 are all in the Hall, except Schilling and Clemens.

[jcrmoon42]

Bah

Statistics and lies! Lies and statistics!

As someone who grew up an hour from tiger stadium, you people will never convince me he's not hall worthy!

And there would be no sense trying! Still, if you aren't going to use statistics, then we should put in Jay Buhner, Jim Eisenreich, Kent Hrbek, and every other fan favorite. We could have a special, Gabe Kapler corner of the Hall for all the really cool people in baseball. Morris would fit right in!

By the way, Morris's ERA+ is the same, in a similar number of seasons, to Rheal Cormier, Ramon Martinez and Tim Wakefield.

[trmmilwwi]

Knowing absolutely nothing about their stat lines it seems to me that both Schilling and Morris are sentimental picks. No and no from me.

Schilling actually has a much stronger argument for being in the Hall, in my opinion.
- Eight times in the top 4 in Pitchers WAR.
- Ten times in the top 10 in fewest walks per nine AND ten times in the top 10 for most Ks per nine.
- Fifteenth all time in career strikeouts, and every eligible player ahead of him is in.
- Second all time, and first in the modern era, in K:BB ratio.
- His 127 ERA+ is the same as Tom Seaver and Bob Gibson.
- Every eligible modern starter with more than 130 points on the Hall of Fame Monitor is in. Schilling is at 171. Ahead of 41 Hall of Famers, including Juan Marichal, Rube Waddell and Don Drysdale.
- 24th All Time on the JAWS meter, 3.6 ahead of the average HOFer, among eligible, modern starters. The top 30 are all in the Hall, except Schilling and Clemens.

Rethinking my no and no comment

[felipe]

You know...to respond to the second post...wouldn't Nolan Ryan be the most overrated pitcher ever?

[Al-Hoot]

You know...to respond to the second post...wouldn't Nolan Ryan be the most overrated pitcher ever?

Hell, fucking no.

[Manny]

I think Schilling will eventually get in and I think he deserves it. Morris for me was someone I never really dived into his numbers but remember him as a ace and workhorse. Looks like the numbers don't match up with my memory.

Was anyone surprised at the votes (or lack of) that Bonds, Sosa and Clemens got? I knew they wouldnt get in but I was surprised at how many they did get.

[JohnC]

INMHO Morris career numbers are not hall worthy. Although his career ERA may have been much lower if he pitched in better pitchers parks. Tigers Stadium, the Metrodome, and SkyDome are all hitters parks.

Having said that, he still shouldn't get in. Although he certainly was a big game pitcher. If he was pitching for your team that night you knew there was a pretty good chance your team was going to win.

[jcrmoon42]

Interesting to look at Morris's actual post-season games. He obviously had that one great start in Game 7 in 1991. He was really good in 1984 in three starts. The average game score for starters in 1990 in the AL was 50. His 10 inning game in '91 was an 84. His three starts in '84 were 73, 69 and 66. He had four starts of 50 or below. Five were in the 50s, just a little above average. In all, his average playoff start was a 55. Not as much of a big game pitcher as I would have thought. His playoff record was 7-4, and his ERA was 3.80, about in line with his career stats.

Probably not fair to contrast that with Bob Gibson, but I will anyway. In 1968 in the NL, the average game score was 57. Gibby had 9 post season starts, 7 of which were above that and none below 55. Six of them were 80 or above. He went 7-2 with a 1.89 ERA, nearly a run better than his regular season ERA for his career. Those are all World Series starts too, including 3 game 7s.