Ranking the Pennant Winners

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Ranking the Pennant Winners

Post by usnspecialist » Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:32 am

So awhile back Ted and I were having a discussion about the overall talent level on various World Series winners. His argument was that my beloved 2005 Chicago White Sox were the least talented WS champion he can remember, and that they all just happened to have career years in 2005. I naturally decided to go completely overboard in attempting to settle this question and decided to look at ALL pennant winners from 1969 (start of the division era) through 2009, with the Montreal Expos and Chicago White Sox representing 1994 (technically the Yankees had the best AL record at the time of the stoppage, but they already had plenty of representation from around that time frame on this list), for a total of 82 teams. I did not go more recent than 2009 because those teams have players still piling up (or giving away) WAR at a more significant rate than prior teams.

Using the invaluable baseball reference, and after some discussion with Ted on the best way to determine this, we settled on career WAR for the first 11 hitters listed on each team's page as well as the first 10 pitchers. This gives us a fair idea of who actually contributed to those teams, vs guys who just rode the bench or only appeared in a few games for a variety of reasons. That being said, I did collect the career WAR for every player who appeared in a game for a team the year they won the pennant, and will be listing that as a sub ranking, although the teams will be ranked by the "Top WAR" of those 21 guys (11 batters, 10 pitchers). I will be doing a separate post count up style (starting with the worst) for each team, along with various observations that I have.

As a teaser before we get started, here are various averages so you can have a frame of reference as we work our way up. For reference "top" refers to those batters/pitchers who will count for the rankings (which are NOT the top overall WAR totals on the team), and "garbage" refers to those guys who fall outside of that top list, but did make an appearance that year for the squad.
TOP average.PNG
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TOTAL average.PNG
TOTAL average.PNG (6.54 KiB) Viewed 170176 times
AGE average.PNG
AGE average.PNG (6.85 KiB) Viewed 170176 times
GARBAGE average.PNG
GARBAGE average.PNG (6.97 KiB) Viewed 170176 times
Please feel free to offer any thoughts or opinions as we go along (or before I post anything). It will take me some time to get each team formatted, but I will post them as I have them. Once I get everyone posted, I will post the spreadsheet with all of the data as well as consolidated rankings in a separate thread. I hope everyone enjoys this as much as I did making it.
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League Champion- 34
JL Champion- 34
FL Champion- 36, 37
JL Southern- 34
FL Pacific- 37, 39
Wild Card- 33, 35, 36, 40, 43

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Re: Ranking the Pennant Winners

Post by RonCo » Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:34 am

This is going to be fun.
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Re: Ranking the Pennant Winners

Post by Ted » Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:57 am

Credit for inspiration should go to Chad. He and I were talking about retired MLB guys and we got to Konerko when he noted how lacking the '05 Sox were in big names. I just took that note and poked the bear.
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Re: Ranking the Pennant Winners

Post by usnspecialist » Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:20 am

Ted wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:57 am
Credit for inspiration should go to Chad. He and I were talking about retired MLB guys and we got to Konerko when he noted how lacking the '05 Sox were in big names. I just took that note and poked the bear.
i honestly didnt know that is how it came up. Either way it was a really fun project to do.
Randy Weigand

Havana Sugar Kings/San Fernando Bears: 32-50 (1608-1481)
Des Moines Kernels: 52-

League Champion- 34
JL Champion- 34
FL Champion- 36, 37
JL Southern- 34
FL Pacific- 37, 39
Wild Card- 33, 35, 36, 40, 43

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Re: Ranking the Pennant Winners

Post by Dington » Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:12 am

Ted wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:57 am
Credit for inspiration should go to Chad. He and I were talking about retired MLB guys and we got to Konerko when he noted how lacking the '05 Sox were in big names. I just took that note and poked the bear.
Not quite sure how we got to this in conversation, let alone a time-expensive feature on Randy's part.
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Re: Ranking the Pennant Winners

Post by usnspecialist » Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:28 am

Dington wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:12 am
Ted wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:57 am
Credit for inspiration should go to Chad. He and I were talking about retired MLB guys and we got to Konerko when he noted how lacking the '05 Sox were in big names. I just took that note and poked the bear.
Not quite sure how we got to this in conversation, let alone a time-expensive feature on Randy's part.
it wasnt exactly difficult, just a lot of data entry into excel (and now translating into microsoft word). Plus these are the sort of things that are fun for me to do as i pass the time.
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Havana Sugar Kings/San Fernando Bears: 32-50 (1608-1481)
Des Moines Kernels: 52-

League Champion- 34
JL Champion- 34
FL Champion- 36, 37
JL Southern- 34
FL Pacific- 37, 39
Wild Card- 33, 35, 36, 40, 43

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Re: Ranking the Pennant Winners

Post by usnspecialist » Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:15 am

RANK: 82
YEAR: 2007
TEAM: Colorado Rockies
TOP WAR: 302.7
Playoff Results: Lost World Series 4-0

TOTALS:
Totals.PNG
Totals.PNG (12.96 KiB) Viewed 170123 times
Top Offense:
Offense.PNG
Offense.PNG (10.88 KiB) Viewed 170123 times
Top Pitching:
Pitching.PNG
Pitching.PNG (9.6 KiB) Viewed 170123 times
Others of note:
Other.PNG
Other.PNG (4.31 KiB) Viewed 170123 times
Comments: Probably no surprise that this group is the worst pennant winners since 1969, as they needed a miracle 13-1 stretch to close the season to even get to a game 163, they rolled through the NL playoffs unbeaten before getting swept by the Red Sox in the World Series. This group was built around 3 offensive pillars in different generations (33 year old Todd Helton, 27 year old Matt Holliday and 22 year old Troy Tulowitzki), and not really much else to speak of. They were smart enough to not like Byung-Hyun Kim pitch in the World Series, so he did not have the chance to continue his illustrious history of blowing World Series games.
Randy Weigand

Havana Sugar Kings/San Fernando Bears: 32-50 (1608-1481)
Des Moines Kernels: 52-

League Champion- 34
JL Champion- 34
FL Champion- 36, 37
JL Southern- 34
FL Pacific- 37, 39
Wild Card- 33, 35, 36, 40, 43

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Re: Ranking the Pennant Winners

Post by usnspecialist » Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:17 am

RANK: 81
YEAR: 1990
TEAM: Cincinnati Reds
TOP WAR: 322.7

TOTALS:
Totals.PNG
Totals.PNG (12.97 KiB) Viewed 170122 times
Top Offense:
Offense.PNG
Offense.PNG (10.32 KiB) Viewed 170122 times
Top Pitching:
Pitching.PNG
Pitching.PNG (9.53 KiB) Viewed 170122 times
Others of note:
Other.PNG
Other.PNG (3.92 KiB) Viewed 170122 times
Comments: Ladies and gentlemen, this is the worst World Series team in this study, and they earned it with a truly collection of random guys who pulled one of the greatest upsets in World Series history over the star-studded Oakland A’s who (spoiler alert) appear much higher on this list. The offense was highlighted by a legitimate star in Barry Larkin, a briefly shooting star in Eric Davis and TV sitcom star Paul O’Neill. Other than those 3 this team was structured around the nasty boys back end of the bullpen with Randy Myers, Norm Charlton and Rob Dibble, a formula that Ned Yost would religiously follow throughout his managerial career over 20 years later. Also featured an end of career cameo by Ken Griffey and the other McGriff (best known as the cousin of Fred).
Randy Weigand

Havana Sugar Kings/San Fernando Bears: 32-50 (1608-1481)
Des Moines Kernels: 52-

League Champion- 34
JL Champion- 34
FL Champion- 36, 37
JL Southern- 34
FL Pacific- 37, 39
Wild Card- 33, 35, 36, 40, 43

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Re: Ranking the Pennant Winners

Post by usnspecialist » Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:50 am

RANK: 80
YEAR: 1993
TEAM: Philadelphia Phillies
TOP WAR: 322.9

TOTALS:
Totals.PNG
Totals.PNG (12.83 KiB) Viewed 170120 times
Top Offense:
Offense.PNG
Offense.PNG (11.15 KiB) Viewed 170120 times
Top Pitching:
Pitching.PNG
Pitching.PNG (9.64 KiB) Viewed 170120 times
Others of note:
Others.PNG
Others.PNG (3.2 KiB) Viewed 170120 times
Comments: The only reason this team is not the worst is because should-be Hall of Famer Curt Schilling was making his name as a star, because other than him dear lord this team is bad (and when you factor in the entire roster they are the worst ever). Lenny Dykstra is the only offensive player of any note career wise (although I think everyone loved some John Kruk at some point). They are not even hiding any guys on the bench who were any good at any point of their careers. Also interesting note that this is the 2nd appearance for Mariano Duncan and Danny Jackson, thus establishing them as the first multi-team guys on this list (and Jackson makes a 3rd appearance later on). This squad faced a talent-laden Toronto Blue Jays squad and pushed them to 6 games before memorably having to watch Joe Carter touch them all.
Randy Weigand

Havana Sugar Kings/San Fernando Bears: 32-50 (1608-1481)
Des Moines Kernels: 52-

League Champion- 34
JL Champion- 34
FL Champion- 36, 37
JL Southern- 34
FL Pacific- 37, 39
Wild Card- 33, 35, 36, 40, 43

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Re: Ranking the Pennant Winners

Post by Ted » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:30 am

Wow. That Phillies team minus Schilling. What the hell, NL?
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Re: Ranking the Pennant Winners

Post by usnspecialist » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:41 am

Ted wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:30 am
Wow. That Phillies team minus Schilling. What the hell, NL?
that was the year of the epic NL west pennant race between the braves and the giants (yes the braves in the NL west), where it went down to the last day of the season and the 103 win giants ended up sitting at home.
Randy Weigand

Havana Sugar Kings/San Fernando Bears: 32-50 (1608-1481)
Des Moines Kernels: 52-

League Champion- 34
JL Champion- 34
FL Champion- 36, 37
JL Southern- 34
FL Pacific- 37, 39
Wild Card- 33, 35, 36, 40, 43

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Re: Ranking the Pennant Winners

Post by RonCo » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:55 am

WAR is the stat to use here, but it's an interesting one for a lot of reasons. I've never really looked at it, but it seems logical that an NL team's offensive WAR would be down relative to an AL team's WAR...or that an individual NL hitter's WAR my rise a bit due to hitting in an environment where 11% of the hitters are pitchers.

The other thing to keep in mind is the old saying "what do they call the person who graduates last in their medical class?"

Or "I don't have to run faster than the bear...I only have to run faster than you!"
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Re: Ranking the Pennant Winners

Post by usnspecialist » Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:04 am

RonCo wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:55 am
WAR is the stat to use here, but it's an interesting one for a lot of reasons. I've never really looked at it, but it seems logical that an NL team's offensive WAR would be down relative to an AL team's WAR...or that an individual NL hitter's WAR my rise a bit due to hitting in an environment where 11% of the hitters are pitchers.

The other thing to keep in mind is the old saying "what do they call the person who graduates last in their medical class?"

Or "I don't have to run faster than the bear...I only have to run faster than you!"
i considered the DH addition, especially since the NL substitute is basically a platoon guy. That being said, i think a large amount of inflation is due to one franchise and one franchise only....
Randy Weigand

Havana Sugar Kings/San Fernando Bears: 32-50 (1608-1481)
Des Moines Kernels: 52-

League Champion- 34
JL Champion- 34
FL Champion- 36, 37
JL Southern- 34
FL Pacific- 37, 39
Wild Card- 33, 35, 36, 40, 43

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Re: Ranking the Pennant Winners

Post by Ted » Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:19 am

RonCo wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:55 am
WAR is the stat to use here, but it's an interesting one for a lot of reasons. I've never really looked at it, but it seems logical that an NL team's offensive WAR would be down relative to an AL team's WAR...or that an individual NL hitter's WAR my rise a bit due to hitting in an environment where 11% of the hitters are pitchers.

The other thing to keep in mind is the old saying "what do they call the person who graduates last in their medical class?"

Or "I don't have to run faster than the bear...I only have to run faster than you!"
Yeah. We talked about including one more batter in the NL, given that they had more pinch hit ABs due to pitcher hitting, etc. But we decided against it. Missing those pinch hit attempts is balanced out by the fact that we didn't include the negative hitting WAR of pitchers.

For context, the first 3 batters left off the list generally had 200-250, 100-200, and 50-150 PA's. That's a LOT of playing time. However, a lot of those 200-250 PA types were absolutely abysmal seasons by aged former All-Stars. The goal of this exercise was to include only the career WARs of the players who actually helped the team win. This approach did leave out some key bench performances, or rookie half seasons, but it kept us from old superstar bloat and ridiculous small sample hot streak by chumpyMcNoName.
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Re: Ranking the Pennant Winners

Post by usnspecialist » Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:44 am

Ted wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:19 am
RonCo wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:55 am
WAR is the stat to use here, but it's an interesting one for a lot of reasons. I've never really looked at it, but it seems logical that an NL team's offensive WAR would be down relative to an AL team's WAR...or that an individual NL hitter's WAR my rise a bit due to hitting in an environment where 11% of the hitters are pitchers.

The other thing to keep in mind is the old saying "what do they call the person who graduates last in their medical class?"

Or "I don't have to run faster than the bear...I only have to run faster than you!"
Yeah. We talked about including one more batter in the NL, given that they had more pinch hit ABs due to pitcher hitting, etc. But we decided against it. Missing those pinch hit attempts is balanced out by the fact that we didn't include the negative hitting WAR of pitchers.

For context, the first 3 batters left off the list generally had 200-250, 100-200, and 50-150 PA's. That's a LOT of playing time. However, a lot of those 200-250 PA types were absolutely abysmal seasons by aged former All-Stars. The goal of this exercise was to include only the career WARs of the players who actually helped the team win. This approach did leave out some key bench performances, or rookie half seasons, but it kept us from old superstar bloat and ridiculous small sample hot streak by chumpyMcNoName.
agreed, we definitely spent a decent amount of time playing around and figuring out the right formula. Additionally i compromised a bit and did a total WAR calculation for everyone on the team, so it will give everyone that way as well.
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Havana Sugar Kings/San Fernando Bears: 32-50 (1608-1481)
Des Moines Kernels: 52-

League Champion- 34
JL Champion- 34
FL Champion- 36, 37
JL Southern- 34
FL Pacific- 37, 39
Wild Card- 33, 35, 36, 40, 43

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Re: Ranking the Pennant Winners

Post by RonCo » Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:13 pm

Regarding Schilling, his numbers continue to startle me. As a guy paying attention when he was pitching, I knew he was good but I honestly would never have really pointed to him when the topic of "who is the best pitcher in the league" would come up. Yeah, yeah. I understand. And yeah, yeah, he has a WHOLE lotta baggage now. But I guess I was dense. I mostly saw Schilling as the guy you loved to have as your#2/#3 kind of pitcher. I felt about him the same way I feel about Ernesto Ramos on my YS9 team these days.

So, the numbers...well... :shrug:

And yes, without him those Phillies numbers are pretty meh. So, lightning in a bottle for them there.
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Re: Ranking the Pennant Winners

Post by usnspecialist » Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:55 am

RANK: 79
YEAR: 2008
TEAM: Tampa Bay Rays
TOP WAR: 330.5
Playoff Results: Lost World Series 4-1

TOTALS:
Total.PNG
Total.PNG (12.93 KiB) Viewed 170074 times
Top Offense:
Offense.PNG
Offense.PNG (10.51 KiB) Viewed 170074 times
Top Pitching:
Pitching.PNG
Pitching.PNG (9.35 KiB) Viewed 170074 times
Others of note:
Others.PNG
Others.PNG (7.16 KiB) Viewed 170074 times
Comments: A true example of the sum being greater than its parts, this Rays team won the AL East and made it all the way to the World Series before phalling to the Philadelphia Phillies. Despite being known as a swiss army knife that team, Ben Zobrist only appeared in 62 games and had 227 PA, falling well short of Willy Aybar’s 362 which would have given this team a much-needed WAR boost. Likewise on the pitching side, young phenom David Price was brought up in September and pitched 5 games in relief, before establishing himself as an ace in later years. This team was carried by a bunch of good but not great players on offense centered around a young star in Evan Longoria, while the starting pitching staff was extremely young but centered around guys who became known for bouncing around the league (Matt Garza 5 teams in 12 years, 4 teams in 13 years, Edwin Jackson (14!!! teams in 17 years).
Randy Weigand

Havana Sugar Kings/San Fernando Bears: 32-50 (1608-1481)
Des Moines Kernels: 52-

League Champion- 34
JL Champion- 34
FL Champion- 36, 37
JL Southern- 34
FL Pacific- 37, 39
Wild Card- 33, 35, 36, 40, 43

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Re: Ranking the Pennant Winners

Post by usnspecialist » Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:37 am

RANK: 78
YEAR: 2005
TEAM: Chicago White Sox
TOP WAR: 351.5
Playoff Results: Won World Series 4-0

TOTALS:
Total.PNG
Total.PNG (12.83 KiB) Viewed 170058 times
Top Offense:
Offense.PNG
Offense.PNG (10.64 KiB) Viewed 170058 times
Top Pitching:
Pitching.PNG
Pitching.PNG (10.15 KiB) Viewed 170058 times
Others of note:
Others.PNG
Others.PNG (4.46 KiB) Viewed 170058 times
Comments: Well Ted was wrong that the 05 White Sox were the worst World Series winner of all time, but unfortunately for me he was not THAT far wrong. This team was built around solid guys that you need, but nobody was a true superstar. Their best player is ultimate “Hall of Very Good” guy Mark Buehrle, who was such a joy to watch pitch. Arguably the only thing this team did more often than win baseball games in 2005 was drink beer after the game (a never-denied story of Mark Buehrle having a drink in the clubhouse and then coming out to get a save in the World Series illustrates the team perfectly). To illustrate how truly paper thin this team was on talent, the 3 guys listed in the “other” section represent the entire collection of guys with more than 3.3 WAR who were not every day contributors for this team, and that list includes a broken down Frank Thomas, and 2 rookie pitchers. This team will forever have a place in my heart, but numbers don’t lie, they were decidedly a mediocre group of players on the whole.
Randy Weigand

Havana Sugar Kings/San Fernando Bears: 32-50 (1608-1481)
Des Moines Kernels: 52-

League Champion- 34
JL Champion- 34
FL Champion- 36, 37
JL Southern- 34
FL Pacific- 37, 39
Wild Card- 33, 35, 36, 40, 43

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Re: Ranking the Pennant Winners

Post by usnspecialist » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:06 am

RANK: 77
YEAR: 1987
TEAM: St. Louis Cardinals
TOP WAR: 381.3
Playoff Results: Lost World Series 4-3

TOTALS:
Totals.PNG
Totals.PNG (12.74 KiB) Viewed 170055 times
Top Offense:
Offense.PNG
Offense.PNG (10.15 KiB) Viewed 170055 times
Top Pitching:
Pitching.PNG
Pitching.PNG (8.96 KiB) Viewed 170055 times
Others of note:
Others.PNG
Others.PNG (4.09 KiB) Viewed 170055 times
Comments: The big headliners here are all on offense, led by the Wizard of Oz himself at shortstop. Ozzie was far from a one-man band on offense however, as he was flanked by solid to very good performers such as Jack Clark, Willie McGee, Terry Pendleton, and Vince Coleman. The bench is headlined by a mix of old-timers barely hanging on and a young talent in Lance “one-dog” Johnson who had not fully realized his potential yet. The pitching staff meanwhile, is pretty much an abomination, with the only meaningful SP guys in John Tudor and Bob Forsch being near the end of their careers. It is also telling that nobody from the pen even made the “others of note” section.
Randy Weigand

Havana Sugar Kings/San Fernando Bears: 32-50 (1608-1481)
Des Moines Kernels: 52-

League Champion- 34
JL Champion- 34
FL Champion- 36, 37
JL Southern- 34
FL Pacific- 37, 39
Wild Card- 33, 35, 36, 40, 43

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Re: Ranking the Pennant Winners

Post by Ted » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:14 am

Only one of the Cards 80's teams I'm old enough to remember seeing live. I'd like to point out that this is 30 WAR higher than the previous entry. And a whopping 80 points higher than those awful, awful Rockies
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