$1100 Roster Game

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$1100 Roster Game

Post by Ted » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:08 pm

So, I stole this idea from Sean McIndoe (of Down Goes Brown/Athletic fame). Basically, we've all had the argument of which team has the best roster of all time, using any player who played for the franchise. That's boring. He came up with the idea of having a spending limit, you have to pay for games played, and you need three forwards, two defensemen, and a goalie. You get $200. The kicker is, by selecting a player, you get the ENTIRE career, not just the games they played for your team. So if you're my St. Louis Blues, and you traded for Wayne Gretzky and had him for all of 13 games, you have a pretty solid start. This is a lot of fun, because it's a few hours of, "Oh yeah, I forgot we traded for the corpse of that guy for half a season." You get to look upon failed deadline acquisitions or FA busts in a different light.

Baseball is a bit different, so I came up with the following rules. The roster is 8 position players, one at each fielding position, and seven pitchers. You get $800 dollars per position player. It costs one dollar for each game played for your team. For pitchers, you get a total of $300 for 7 players. One dollar for each appearance. I thought about using innings pitched, but the changes in pitcher usage over the many decades of baseball are less dramatic for games played than IP, although there are problems with both. Games are just easier to handle. The idea with 300 bucks is we're essentially giving you 100 games per player position for positional guys. So I'm saying 3 pitchers per game, 100 games, 300 games there. Really there's no reason to use dollars at all, but it's more fun to think you are buying things. So 800 position players dollars to spend on 800 or fewer games, 300 for pitchers.

You only get to select players who played from 1900 on. If you take a player who played from say 1890 to 1905, you only get the 1900+ years. You can select active players, but only if they have played an entire season with their current team. No Greinke for the Astros.

Last bit of rules. For position players, to qualify for a position they have to have played your most games at that position with the following exceptions: You can put any SS at 2B, any CF in corner OF, any 3B at 1B, and ONE DH at 1B or a corner OF spot. There is no criteria for starters versus relievers.

With those rules set, here are what I came up with for the St. Louis Cardinals:

Pitchers
John Smoltz 7 HOF
Dennis Eckersly 120 HOF
Mordecai Brown 26 HOF
Cy Young 41 HOF
Dazzy Vance 19 HOF
Hoyt Wilhem 40 HOF
Vic Willis 33 HOF
286

Hitters
C Jack Warner 41
1B Dick Allen 122
2B Ronnie Belliard 54
3B John McGraw 99 HOF
SS Rabbit Maranville 121 HOF
LF Larry Walker 144 (Should be HOF)
CF Randy Winn 87
RF Bobby Bonds 86
754

Lots of moldy oldies for pitching. We only get the second half of Cy Young's career, but that's still pretty nuts. And entire staff of hall of fame pitchers is nuts. Apparently early last century the Cards just kicked the tires on every famous pitcher. Seven dollars for John Smotlz is jsut incredible.

The offense is alright. Dick Allen, Bobby Bonds, and Larry Walker are super fun. John McGraw is a legend. There were no catchers we rented, so if you don't know who Jack Warner is, don't worry. I almost took Bob Ueker for fun, but then I'd have to play Will Clark instead of Dick Allen, and that's a substantial downgrade. Other interesting short time Cards were Lance Berkman, Bruce Sutter, Troy Glaus and Andres Galarraga.

I'm interested to see how they stack up. I think this is a decent team, probably top half, but I bet there are some better ones. You might think older franchises have an advantage, but I bet expansion drafts got some of the recent teams some interesting players.

Most teams have a wikipedia page listing all their hall of famers. I'd start there. Then I used baseball reference to look at all time rosters. Sorted batters by PA's to skip most of the pitchers.

I had a lot of fun with this. I hope some of you are interested too. Took me a little over an hour. Randy is working on the White Sox, but no reason you can't pick the same team if you like. There are some other fun ones. Randy Johnson with San Francisco for 8 bucks. Rickey Henderson for the Dodgers for 30. Willie Mays with the Mets is a bit more pricey, but it's Willie freaking Mays. Lots of good ones. I except to see C.C. Sabathia with the Brewers for 17 bucks Recte!
Last edited by Ted on Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: $1100 Roster Game

Post by jleddy » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:26 pm

Very cool, I'll give this a try...Seaver ($18), Marichal ($11) and Smoltz ($8) is a nice start to my Red Sox pitching.

Good to see a Ted appearance on the boards!
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Re: $1100 Roster Game

Post by RonCo » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:44 pm

Interesting. I'll have to try that.

And, yes .... :wave: to Ted.
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Re: $1100 Roster Game

Post by bschr682 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:13 pm

itchy to come back already?!
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Re: $1100 Roster Game

Post by Ted » Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:42 pm

bschr682 wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:13 pm
itchy to come back already?!
Nope! The more I thought about it, I don't think I'm happy with where OOTP is. It's been a great game, but I think the current and recent versions are struggling a bit to incorporate more advanced/realistic ideas and making the product less enjoyable due to difficulties in implementation.
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Re: $1100 Roster Game

Post by JimBob2232 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:37 pm

Montreal - Pedro Martinez (118), Oil Can Boyd (50) Randy Johnson (11), Lee Smith (25), Bartolo Colon (17), Ted Lilly (9), Ron Darling (3)/233

1B - Pete Rose (95)
OF - Roberto Kelly (24)
OF - Felipe Alou (17)
OF - Maury wills (47)

Middle IF get tough.

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Re: $1100 Roster Game

Post by Ted » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:45 pm

JimBob2232 wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:37 pm
Montreal - Pedro Martinez (118), Oil Can Boyd (50) Randy Johnson (11), Lee Smith (25), Bartolo Colon (17), Ted Lilly (9), Ron Darling (3)/233

1B - Pete Rose (95)
OF - Roberto Kelly (24)
OF - Felipe Alou (17)
OF - Maury wills (47)

Middle IF get tough.
That's a great start though. Was hoping someone would look at the Expos. I think middle IF is tough for a lot of teams. 2B and SS used to be home for guys with .270 BA's and 290-.300 OBPs and .300 slugging percentage, essentially replacement level players. Traditional baseball strategy resulted in a LOT of playing time wasted on guys who provided little to no value.
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Re: $1100 Roster Game

Post by RonCo » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:28 pm

Here's my shoat at the Chicago Cubs

HITTING
POS Player $ WARNote
C Joe Berry $2 7.3
1B Jimmie Foxx $85 96.6 HOF
2B Rogers Hornsby $217 127 HOF
3B Gary Gaetti $150 42.1
SS Nomar Garciaparra $105 44.2
LF Jim Edmonds $85 60.4
CF Kenny Lofton $56 68.3
RF Bobby Bonds $45 57.9
$745 503.8

Well, that looks like a pretty good set of hitters. I was looking for how to get Lou Brock in, but the sacrifices were a bit too much, so I settle for Rico Carty (edit...actually, no, I'll go ahead and take the better way out and go Bobby Bonds...Carty was great but lost a lot with injury, so there you go). At question is whether we move Riche Ashburn to left, or Jim Edmonds. THe alternate at CF is Kenny Lofton. To be honest, I should probably field him, as we could probably use a true lead-off hitter. Oh, the pain. Mr. Hamm at SS doesn't suck, and I think Foxx and Lazerri on the right side of the infield seems like a pretty okay pair. I wanted to shoehorn Garry Gaetti into 3B, or even Richie Hebner, but the numbers just didn't quiet work out.

Still, I think that club ought to score some runs and play pretty okay defense.

EDIT 2: Damn you, Ted….bumping for update…

Still optimizing the Cubs. By swapping out little Joe Berry and his $2 1940 7 WAR for Jim Sundberg, and pushing Edmonds to LF (displacing a few more WAR in Ashburn), I can bring Rogers Hornsby and his $217 127 WAR into the mix—which replaces HOF Lazerri with a bigger HOF. This also gives me room to get Gary Gaetti into 3B with a little left over.


PITCHING
POS Player $ WARNote
P Dizzy Dean $43 45.8 HOF
P Robin Roberts $11 85.9 HOF
P Curt Simmons $36 43.2
P Cole Hammels $26 59.5
P Dennis Eckersley $83 62 HOF
P Burleigh Grimes $47 52.7 HOF
P Hoyt Wilhelm $3 46.8 HOF
$249 395.9

I wasn't sure exactly how many pitchers I could ad, so I basically filled up my favorite $300.

Regardless, I love the pitching staff...especially Hoyt Wilhelm for $3. And it's just fun to think about Dean and Roberts together. And, sure, Larson wasn't all that, but he'll throw a perfect game when we get to the Series, and that's gotta be worth 3 bucks no matter what. Simmons is probably a bit forgotten, but is a great addition--same for Geoff Zahn. I had him in a card game as a kid, though. Loved to watch him at his peak, so he'll throw long relief. And Cole Hamels may be an interesting HoF candidate. He's still doing it. Eckersley and Chapman ought to be able to get a few guys out in the 8th and 9th, and Johnny Vander Meer is just flat-out a guilty pleasure.

EDIT - to get to seven pitchers, I'll just remove Larson, Vander Meer, and Zahn. Arguably, one could slide Mark Prior and his 25 or so WAR in 102 games in for Curt Simmons if we were to look at what could have been, but assuming we really mean whole careers we keep Simmons. That leaves four HOFers, Simmons, and Hamels/Chapman, who are still active.

EDIT 2: In addition, I stumbled onto HOF Burleigh Grimes and his 52.7 WAR, which to max numbers, I slide in for Chapman.

All total: 899.7 WAR for $994.




This was really fun.

If I get some time I'll try to do the Reds.
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Re: $1100 Roster Game

Post by jleddy » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:13 am

Woo wee, that was fun!

Here's my selection for my beloved Red Sox, in batting order:

PLAYERPOS$ (G)YEAR(S)WARSTATSNOTES
Lou BoudreauSS$861951-195263.0.295/.380/.415HoF
Brandon Phillips2B$9201831.0.275/.320/.4204x GG; 209 SB
Babe RuthLF$3911914-1919162.1.342/.474/.690HoF
Andre DawsonRF$1961993-199464.8.279/.323/.482HoF; 8x GG
Javy LopezC$18200629.7.287/.337/.491
Mike CameronCF$812010-201146.7.249/.338/.4443x GG; 297 SB
Gary Gaetti1B*$5200042.1.255/.308/.4344x GG at 3B
Dave Hollins3B$5199517.8.260/.358/.420
$791457.2
Knowing some of the franchise legends like Teddy Ballgame, Big Papi, Dewey, Boggs, etc. played two to three times (sometimes 4x - Yaz, 3308 games) the budget of 800 "games", I was going to have to go stars and scrubs mode big time. Of all the sluggers who've played in Fenway, I didn't think I was going to go with Gary Gaetti, who at 5 games, was a bargain. Gaetti DH'd those handful of games in 2000, his last season of his career, but I could slot him at 1B per the rules. Being a four-time Gold Glover at third base during his prime, I'm hoping he could be so-so offensively but help out with defense. John Olerud was an option but at $82 more than Gaetti and only 16 career WAR, Helmet Head wasn't going to make it. Spending $86 on Boudreau was tough, but Royce Clayton's 19.6 WAR even at $8 would be a joke and Orlando Cabrera's defense and 21.4 WAR wasn't enough of a savings at $55. Third base was clearly the most difficult but I'm fine with a below-average Hollins knowing that the savings would help out elsewhere. Left field was a lot harder than I thought, as Rickey Henderson was substantially cheaper than the Bambino at $72 and obviously his 111.2 WAR was worth it. But had I gone with Rickey, there wouldn't have been another big bat to plug in at a position of need that fit the budget. Same goes for Al Simmons ($40, 68.8 WAR), who I considered in LF and using Luis Aparicio ($367, 55.8 WAR) at short to gobble up every grounder hit up the middle and left side. Willie McGee missed qualifing as a Red Sox centerfielder by three innings, otherwise I would have considered him ($67, 34.2 WAR) over Cameron in order to save money to spend elsewhere and add more speed to the lineup. Overall, we still have some guys who can run, sneaky good defense on the right side of the infield to go with great defense in CF and RF, oh, and there's Babe freakin' Ruth.

Pitching was slightly easier, in my opinion, but still made for some interesting decision-making:

PLAYERPOS$ (G)YEAR(S)WARSTATSNOTES
Pedro MartinezSP12031998-200483.9219-100, 2.93 ERA (154 ERA+), 1.05 WHIPfuture HoF
Tom SeaverSP2161986109.9311-205, 2.86 ERA (127 ERA+), 1.12 WHIPHoF
Juan MarichalSP311197462.9243-142, 2.89 ERA (123 ERA+), 1.10 WHIPHoF
Bartolo ColonSP47200846.1247-188, 4.12 ERA (106 ERA+), 1.31 WHIP
Frank TananaMID/LOOGY24198157.1240-236, 3.66 ERA (106 ERA+), 1.27 WHIP
David ConeSU25200162.3194-126, 3.46 ERA (121 ERA+), 1.26 WHIPHoF
John SmoltzCL8200969.0213 W, 154 SV, 3.33 ERA (125 ERA+), 1.18 WHIPHoF
$294491.2
Getting four Hall of Famers at $16 or less was a huge blessing, allowing me to go with Pedro as the staff ace. Jack Chesbro for $1 would have been sweet, but despite being a Hall of Famer (42.3 WAR after the turn of the century), I'm not sure his game would have translated well other than having the rubberiest of rubber arms. We're rolling out a four-man rotation because let's face it, most of the guys on my staff pitched when men were men. Curt Schilling's 79.5 WAR at $119 was considered but not at the expense of Pedro. Fergie Jenkins ($58, 84.1 WAR) and Waite Hoyt ($35, 52.6 WAR) were on the shortlist but like the offense, moving pieces around meant some deep discounts had to be taken into effect. Since relievers make so many appearances, it could be potentially tough to field a legit closer, although any stud pitcher could play the part. Having the ability to slot a real closer in Smoltz at just $8 was huge. And had I been able to shave off $9 somewhere, I would have gone with David Wells ($38, 53.5 WAR) over Tanana as the staff lefty because I know he would have loved to play with Babe Ruth, even if it mean as a Red Sox and not a Yankee.

TOTAL: $1085, 948.4 WAR

Anyways, that was a ton of fun. I'm hoping more people do this, as I'd love to see some of the bargains to be unearthed or strategy in place to make all the pieces fit. Thanks again, @Ted!
Last edited by jleddy on Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: $1100 Roster Game

Post by GoldenOne » Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:29 am

If I do the Nats, do I get Montreal as part of the franchise or do I get the old Senators teams (and not where those teams moved to?) Maybe I do both?
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Re: $1100 Roster Game

Post by Ted » Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:52 am

GoldenOne wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:29 am
If I do the Nats, do I get Montreal as part of the franchise or do I get the old Senators teams (and not where those teams moved to?) Maybe I do both?
The Nats would get the Expos players. Just like San Francisco and LA get their old new york versions. But you could also look at a team in it's current incarnation solo. Rules on that are flexible.
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Re: $1100 Roster Game

Post by Ted » Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:54 am

Just realized I didn't give you the number of pitchers. It's seven. Feel free to rework your posts.
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Re: $1100 Roster Game

Post by GoldenOne » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:24 am

Ted wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:54 am
Just realized I didn't give you the number of pitchers. It's seven. Feel free to rework your posts.
You said 7 - " For pitchers, you get a total of $300 for 7 players."
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Re: $1100 Roster Game

Post by Ted » Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:42 am

GoldenOne wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:24 am
Ted wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:54 am
Just realized I didn't give you the number of pitchers. It's seven. Feel free to rework your posts.
You said 7 - " For pitchers, you get a total of $300 for 7 players."
I edited the original post. Probably should have mentioned that.
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Re: $1100 Roster Game

Post by usnspecialist » Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:59 am

CHICAGO WHITE SOX

Pitching
SP1: Tom Seaver $81, 109.9 WAR (HOF)
SP1A: Steve Carlton $10 90.2 WAR (HOF)
SP3: Red Ruffing $9 68.2 WAR (HOF)
SP4: Dave Stieb $4 56.4 WAR
SP5: Jerry Koosman $87 53.6 WAR
SP6: David Wells $16 53.5 WAR
SP7: Jim Kaat 50.4 WAR
SP8: Chief Bender $1 47.3 WAR (HOF)

TOTALS: $299/482.9 WAR

Relying heavily on the 60s-80s time frame, the White Sox spending exactly the max budget gets them 4 HOF (including 2 inner circle guys in Seaver/Carlton) 3 crafty lefties and maybe the most underrated player of the 1980s in Dave Stieb. I would put this 8 man group against any out there, especially in a playoff series where you have to face seaver/carlton 4 out of 5 or 5 out of 7. First guys left out were Big Sexy Bartolo Colon (who former white sox owner bill Veeck would have loved) and reliever Sparky Lyle.

EDIT: Ted informed me I was a big ole cheater (in reality I cant count) and I needed to drop a pitcher. I chose to get rid of my $1 HOF guy in Chief Bender, who threw 1 inning while he was pitching coach in the 20s. Still leaves me with a pretty damn good team (even if it does knock me below 1000 total WAR).

Offense (in lineup order
RF Kenny Lofton $93 68.3 WAR
1B Dick Allen $348 58.7 WAR
LF Manny Ramirez $24 69.4 WAR
CF Ken Griffey Jr. $41 83.8 WAR (HOF)
2B Roberto Alomar $85 67.1 WAR (HOF)
3B Ron Santo $117 70.5 WAR (HOF)
SS Jimmy Rollins $41 46.3 WAR
C Don Slaught $14 19.3 WAR

TOTALS: $763/483.4 WAR

The White Sox offense is not only fairly balanced top to bottom (featuring MVP winner Jimmy Rollins in the 7 spot immediately behind 3 HOFers), but also incredibly adept with the leather (with the glaring exception of Manny Ramirez in LF). One of the most underrated players of his generation, Kenny Lofton leads off before turning it over to the power hitting trio of Dick Allen, Manny Ramirez and Ken Griffey Jr. With 1,536 HR between the 3 of them, chances are not too many guys are going to be left on base by the time they are done. For that reason Robbie Alomar slides into the #5 spot to set the table for Ron Santo (who spent his final year on the South Side) and the previously mentioned Jimmy Rollins. Don Slaught represents the best of a mediocre collection of short time white sox catchers, so he brings up there rear. This team is so affordable that they can even play by AL rules and bring in Bobby Bonds ($26, 57.9 WAR) to DH if necessary.

OVERALL TOTALS: $1066/966.3 WAR
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JL Southern- 34
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Re: $1100 Roster Game

Post by Ted » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:07 pm

Someone should take the Braves. There's a pretty exiting player for super cheap. You might have to dig a little.
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Re: $1100 Roster Game

Post by RonCo » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:39 pm

I wanted to play Fred Holmes, who probably had as many WAR/AB as anyone in history?
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Re: $1100 Roster Game

Post by usnspecialist » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:56 pm

bumping for an edit to the white sox post.
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Re: $1100 Roster Game

Post by jleddy » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:33 pm

Ted wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:07 pm
Someone should take the Braves. There's a pretty exiting player for super cheap. You might have to dig a little.
Big Ed Walsh? If not him, then you're surely talking about Matt Tuiasosopo's -0.3 WAR for just $3...

Other deals I thought of last night and looked up today to confirm would be Piazza's 59.6 WAR at $5 for the Marlins and Doc Gooden's 52.9 WAR at $1 for Houston (although I didn't even remember he was on the Astros for one game during his last season, I was thinking about his short stint ($8) with the Devil Rays that same year.)
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Re: $1100 Roster Game

Post by RonCo » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:50 pm

I repeat...Damn you, Ted….bumping for update to Cubs backstream…
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