2018 HOF Ballot

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2018 HOF Ballot

Post by usnspecialist » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:50 pm

Curious what your HOF ballot would look like if you had one this year (both with the 10 person minimum and without it. Here is my list (first verdict is with 10 limit, 2nd is unlimited).

Edgar Martinez YES YES
Mike Mussina YES YES
Roger Clemens YES YES
Barry Bonds YES YES
Curt Schilling YES YES
Omar Vizquel NO NO
Larry Walker YES YES
Fred McGriff NO NO
Manny Ramirez YES YES
Jeff Kent NO NO
Gary Sheffield NO NO
Billy Wagner NO NO
Scott Rolen YES YES
Sammy Sosa NO NO
Andruw Jones NO NO
Mariano Rivera YES YES
Roy Halladay NO YES
Todd Helton YES YES
Andy Pettitte NO NO
Lance Berkman NO NO
Roy Oswalt NO NO
Miguel Tejada NO NO
Placido Polanco NO NO
Kevin Youkilis NO NO
Derek Lowe NO NO
Freddy Garcia NO NO
Vernon Wells NO NO
Ted Lilly NO NO
Travis Hafner NO NO
Jason Bay NO NO
Michael Young NO NO
Jon Garland NO NO
Darren Oliver NO NO
Juan Pierre NO NO
Rick Ankiel NO NO
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Re: 2018 HOF Ballot

Post by bcslouck » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:51 pm

You cared so much you asked 4 times.
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Re: 2018 HOF Ballot

Post by usnspecialist » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:55 pm

bcslouck wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:51 pm
You cared so much you asked 4 times.
in case you havent noticed, HOF voting is serious business around these parts... :crazylaugh:

In all seriousness, I blame hotel WiFi
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Re: 2018 HOF Ballot

Post by bcslouck » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:04 pm

It's tough for the top half. I feel like I switch back and forth on Clemens and Bonds. I'd put Vizquel, McGriff, and Jeff Kent in. . Mo is a lock and Halladay gets in for more for similar reasons I voted for Slider here. Though Halladay has some better counting stats. I think Schilling took himself out of the HOF the last few years. He used to be an in for me. Helton, Walker, and Sheffield are similar to me where I'm 50/50. Wouldn't be mad they got in but for some reason my guy says no. Same goes for Scott Rolen. Mussina and Edgar Martinez should be in. Mussina gets knocked because he wasn't as good as some of the other guys but I think people forget how great he was with the O's and he was good for a long time. Manny was suspended more than once for PED's. He's out for me on that. Mainly because it was known they were cracking down and he still got popped. If it was more like Bonds and Clemens where there was smoke on it but no suspensions, I'd feel better about having him in.
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Re: 2018 HOF Ballot

Post by agrudez » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:06 pm

usnspecialist wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:50 pm
Roy Halladay NO YES
Alright, we might have to fight now. Pick your weapon and walk the paces.

Context: I was planning to name one of my cats Doc in college before we found out it was a girl so I changed it to Li-Lee (like Lily - for Cliff Lee). The other cat is named Roo (for Claude Giroux), if you were wondering (and why would you be? what a stupid rhetorical).
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Re: 2018 HOF Ballot

Post by usnspecialist » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:10 pm

agrudez wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:06 pm
usnspecialist wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:50 pm
Roy Halladay NO YES
Alright, we might have to fight now. Pick your weapon and walk the paces.

Context: I was planning to name one of my cats Doc in college before we found out it was a girl so I changed it to Li-Lee (like Lily - for Cliff Lee). The other cat is named Roo (for Claude Giroux), if you were wondering (and why would you be? what a stupid rhetorical).
i choose the 2010 stanley cup as my weapon, what is yours? :champs:

I was torn between doc and schilling for who would miss the cut under the MLB rules, i could really go either way.
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Re: 2018 HOF Ballot

Post by agrudez » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:19 pm

I know it's a terrible reason in terms of what the hall is for (in-game excellence), but I really can't look past Schilling's post-game career (saying this as a Phillies fan that largely grew up during his stint here). Between being a race-baiting nut job pundit wannabe and defrauding a state out of 72.5M dollars by being a scam artist it's tough to imagine me being able to 'enjoy' seeing him get an accolade.
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Re: 2018 HOF Ballot

Post by usnspecialist » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:24 pm

agrudez wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:19 pm
I know it's a terrible reason in terms of what the hall is for (in-game excellence), but I really can't look past Schilling's post-game career (saying this as a Phillies fan that largely grew up during his stint here). Between being a race-baiting nut job pundit wannabe and defrauding a state out of 72.5M dollars by being a scam artist it's tough to imagine me being able to 'enjoy' seeing him get an accolade.
o schilling is an asshat of the first order, but if we are going to use that then you gotta look at guys like ty cobb and a whole slew of others. On the playing note, everyone always forgets schilling's phillie days because of all the awards during the Arizona and boston years, but he was damn good back then too (especially in the 93 playoffs).
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FL Pacific- 37, 39
Wild Card- 33, 35, 36, 40, 43

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Re: 2018 HOF Ballot

Post by bcslouck » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:37 pm

usnspecialist wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:24 pm
o schilling is an asshat of the first order, but if we are going to use that then you gotta look at guys like ty cobb and a whole slew of others. On the playing note, everyone always forgets schilling's phillie days because of all the awards during the Arizona and boston years, but he was damn good back then too (especially in the 93 playoffs).
Eh. Not really. Those guys would never get in now for sure. But we shouldn't let one asshat in now because another was voted in 80 years ago.
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Re: 2018 HOF Ballot

Post by Lane » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:43 pm

I'd just use all my votes on Harold Baines.

But seriously I have thoughts. I'll get to it tomorrow.
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Re: 2018 HOF Ballot

Post by usnspecialist » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:44 pm

Lane wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:43 pm
I'd just use all my votes on Harold Baines.

But seriously I have thoughts. I'll get to it tomorrow.
In a weird way I'm sad Jerry reinsdorf will be dead by the time mark buehrle is veterans committee eligible. It is very close between him and Frank Thomas for my favorite player ever.
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Re: 2018 HOF Ballot

Post by Lane » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:18 pm

usnspecialist wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:44 pm
Lane wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:43 pm
I'd just use all my votes on Harold Baines.

But seriously I have thoughts. I'll get to it tomorrow.
In a weird way I'm sad Jerry reinsdorf will be dead by the time mark buehrle is veterans committee eligible. It is very close between him and Frank Thomas for my favorite player ever.
Buerhle will be on the ballot in like 2020, right? And he at least has a legitimate case for being elected. May not need a vet committee vote.
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Re: 2018 HOF Ballot

Post by Bumstead » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:05 am

I will only make one comment:

I find it humorous that people want to put Buerhle in but completely blow off Oswalt...Oswalt was the better pitcher, he just pitched a few less games...Is it the whole Chicago/big market thing? Oswalt was ignored almost his whole career. I'm not saying I would vote for either, but Oswalt was a better pitcher than Buerhle was and I am a Buerhle fan (even if I'm butchering his name).

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Re: 2018 HOF Ballot

Post by agrudez » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:07 pm

My anecdotal recollection of Buerhle was that he was a #2/3 SP for an impressively sustained length of time. Looking at his BBRF, he only had one season ('05) where he exceeded that, imo. For comparison, Oswalt's career FIP is 74 points better than Buerhle during the same era. Oswalt only had 1 season with a FIP > 4 (his 2nd to last one at age 34 where he largely pitched out of the 'pen). Buerhle, conversely, only had 2 seasons with a FIP < 4 ('05 and '14 - the latter being post-steroid era). It's not remotely close, in my strong opinion, between the two. Buerhle is hall good, Oswalt is hall of great - debatable hall of fame.
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Re: 2018 HOF Ballot

Post by felipe » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:22 pm

agrudez wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:19 pm
I know it's a terrible reason in terms of what the hall is for (in-game excellence), but I really can't look past Schilling's post-game career (saying this as a Phillies fan that largely grew up during his stint here). Between being a race-baiting nut job pundit wannabe and defrauding a state out of 72.5M dollars by being a scam artist it's tough to imagine me being able to 'enjoy' seeing him get an accolade.
That's a disappointing outlook

The man lost $50 million of his own, trying to keep his dream alive..(on top of investor's and government $)

Was he naïve and perhaps a little reckless? Did he try to start at the top, instead of building slowly? Did he ultimately bite off more than he could handle?

Did he waste a lot of money giving his staff the best of everything?

Was he an athlete that thought he could succeed at everything, because he succeeded as an athlete?


Sure he did. But there's no shortage of those guys...



But there is some validity to the point that he was partially undone by a partisan politician, who never wanted him to get the loan in the first place

But it is Schilling's fault that he put himself in that position

He knew nothing about a)running a company, b) creating a game, c)the world of business, d) the world of software development, e)the world of politics etc.

But he tried anyways.

You can wonder what the hell he was thinking - but you can't call him dishonest

The world is full of failed dreamers like him


None of which has anything to do with his baseball record. He is an undenaible Hall of Famer;



It is not a crime to be a die hard Republican, just as it is not a crime to be a die hard Democrat


I doubt anyone here agrees with everything the man says (I sure don't), but I dont know what that has to do with the Hall of Fame

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Re: 2018 HOF Ballot

Post by usnspecialist » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:36 pm

Bumstead wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:05 am
I will only make one comment:

I find it humorous that people want to put Buerhle in but completely blow off Oswalt...Oswalt was the better pitcher, he just pitched a few less games...Is it the whole Chicago/big market thing? Oswalt was ignored almost his whole career. I'm not saying I would vote for either, but Oswalt was a better pitcher than Buerhle was and I am a Buerhle fan (even if I'm butchering his name).

Jeff
I love Mark buehrle and he doesn't deserve to be in HOF. That being said, he was the perfect guy to have in your rotation because you knew exactly what you were going to get when he took the ball. Plus the list of guys with a no hitter AND perfect game can't be very long.
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Re: 2018 HOF Ballot

Post by agrudez » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:50 pm

felipe wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:22 pm
That's a disappointing outlook

...

I doubt anyone here agrees with everything the man says (I sure don't), but I dont know what that has to do with the Hall of Fame

That is a very disingenuous re-telling of the saga with his video game company. He grifted a state out of 10s of millions and then when it all went under he gutted his employees by dropping the onus of resolution onto them from issues he created.

"On May 24, the entire 38 Studios staff was laid off via e-mail. They hadn’t been paid since the end of the previous month, but their problems were just beginning. In short order, their healthcare disappeared and their 401(k)s were frozen. Then, MoveTrek Mobility — a company 38 Studios hired during the relocation to Providence to buy and resell employees’ Massachusetts homes — notified seven people that, because it had not yet sold their houses, they were potentially responsible for their old mortgages. And Atlas Van Lines alerted some individuals that they were on the hook for bills that management hadn’t paid.

Thom Ang is one of those people suddenly stuck with his old mortgage. With two young kids, no salary, rent due on his Rhode Island home, and now a mortgage in Massachusetts to pay, he’s afraid his credit is about to be ruined. “I wasn’t even aware that this could or would happen,” he says, “and then having it affect where I could possibly live and where I could possibly work?”"

Also, I didn't say "pillory him for being a Republican". Schilling transcends partisan politics with his bigotry, though. Unless you want to admit that spewing hate diarrhea towards all directions of the non-white male world on a consistent basis is a partisan issue (in this day and age that would be MY starting position). I'm sorry, but if Pete Rose can't get into the HOF because of his personal conduct, then Curt Schilling shouldn't either. In my book literally ruining hundreds of lives (his employees), defrauding the government out of tens of millions of dollars and auditioning to be the next Grand Wizard tilts the scales quite a bit more than having a gambling addiction.

If your position is that personal conduct shouldn't matter for HOF eligibility (as your last sentence states) then let Rose and the steroid guys in and put some big asterisks up about how precious few of the guys in there should actually be role models for your kids. I'm fine with that, too.
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Re: 2018 HOF Ballot

Post by RonCo » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:58 pm

Pretty much every business in existence in America is living at least partially on the tax payers' dole. That much is true. But, then, most CEOs aren't up for the Hall of Fame. I'm sure if you asked his employees to really look at what was happening at the time, they'd have all told him to charge on. And I'm sure their landlords would all be willing to give them a few year's leeway on their rent. There's good people on all sides, after all.

His baseball case probably puts him in, but to be honest, when I think of great pitchers, the image of Curt Schilling doesn't budge my needle. It's probably me...or maybe I'm biased by these other things. Whichever. But it always felt like he was a #2.
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Re: 2018 HOF Ballot

Post by Bumstead » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:46 pm

RonCo wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:58 pm
Pretty much every business in existence in America is living at least partially on the tax payers' dole. That much is true. But, then, most CEOs aren't up for the Hall of Fame. I'm sure if you asked his employees to really look at what was happening at the time, they'd have all told him to charge on. And I'm sure their landlords would all be willing to give them a few year's leeway on their rent. There's good people on all sides, after all.

His baseball case probably puts him in, but to be honest, when I think of great pitchers, the image of Curt Schilling doesn't budge my needle. It's probably me...or maybe I'm biased by these other things. Whichever. But it always felt like he was a #2.
Well, to be honest, when he was at his best Randy Johnson was the ace on the same pitching staff....His numbers are ridiculous to be called a #2....he just happened to pitch with a top 10 all time pitcher when he was at his own peak (luckily for Arizona!).

That whole era of players are lost to me. They destroyed the game with their own selfishness. I've never been able to regain my love for MLB since that time. But I don't think any of that blame belongs to Curt Schilling. JMO I say all of this to show that I'm sure I dislike players other people like (I know, it would be surprising), and I admit I didn't pay attention to anything Curt Schilling did after his baseball career.

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Re: 2018 HOF Ballot

Post by RonCo » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:59 pm

True.

All I can say is that when the topic of great pitchers comes up, Curt Schilling does not come to my mind. I am literally surprised every time I go look at his numbers--many of which are very good. But he's got an odd career. 79-34 in his late 30s in Arizona/Boston in the height of steroid baseball. Other than that spurt, his numbers wouldn't be in the conversation, IMHO. I'll not argue against when he's voted in. Again, I'm sure it's me, but he's not someone I think of as a great pitcher.
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