Swing Debate

[7teen]

Curious on everyone's thoughts here. I've had some discussion and debate here at home and over twitter with a hitting instructor who played some low minor league ball after high school and our local HS softball coach on this new "launch angle" approach to hitting. These guys are very aggressive in their belief that this is the only way to swing and you should swing with "intent" every time up to bat and look to hit it OVER the infield and OVER the OF every time. Granted the hitting instructor isn't paid to win games, just to teach kids how to "hit"

I coach the school Middle School team and have had our long time hitting coach at the school helping me some. He's very old school. Get the foot down early, put the ball in play hard looking for line drives up the middle. When you get two strikes, spread your feet and look to drive the ball the other way or get it in play. This has led to a lot of remarks from the "launch angle" crowd about coaches only worried about winning and not doing what is best for the player by teaching them how to drive the ball to their full ability.

Yesterday I posted on twitter about how I think there is a correlation between the frequency we are seeing no hit bids in relation to the "new" swing approach of most hitters looking to drive homeruns on every pitch in every at-bat and how fewer players are willing to do the little things like put the ball in play. I've made my Middle School team take gratification in an RBI ground-out, especially with 2 strikes. These "launch angle" guys at home state that a base hit over the infields head would have gotten the run in just the same, and my counter argument is "yeah but a strikeout does nothing" The swings these "launch angle" guys have are increasingly becoming strikeout prone and kids' ability to just take a different approach with 2 strikes is being left behind.

The hitting instructor argues that EVERY kid should do the approach, regardless of size and ability. I've countered that by saying you need a mixture. Yes, middle lineup guys should look to drive the baseball but you also need some guys that know how to handle the bat and drive baseballs on a line and move runners. I said their approach is like teaching a basketball team to shoot nothing but 3s. Even if the team is giving you layups (shift on defense in baseball) you keep jacking up 3s. Or if a football team puts in a bunch of defensive backs, you refuse to run the ball because you thinking passing all the time wins games. They disagree.

And with that, I'll end my rant. Just curious if we have any other opinions or perhaps coaches that have any thoughts on this....

And I may have rambled this out and not thought clearly. haha

[niles08]

It's not middle school even lol but I do coach little league and I feel that I have some of the biggest responsibility because what I teach these kids are going to become habits, and if there wrong, then I am teaching them bad habits....

Anyways...I would resign today if I was teaching every single kid to hit the ball over the fence with a launch angle swing, because that's not right. Sure, there are going to be kids who have the power and bat speed to hit it over the fence, but others who "launch the ball" and the ball drops right down into the outfielders glove on a fly ball out.

One of the first things, I teach the kids is making "contact" with 2 strikes. Put the ball in play and make something happen rather than letting it hit the catchers mitt for strike 3 and a walk back to the bench. Put the ball in play and make the defense make a play rather than you swinging and missing. Especially if it involves advancing the runners from 2nd to 3rd with 0 out, or getting a runner home on an RBI ground out.

Once again...it's just little league though.

[GoldenOne]

For background, I've been coaching high school softball now for two years and I've been a A-ball level travel coach for six years now. While I'm not a paid hitting coach, I do work with girls here and there when they need some extra help or another set of eyes, etc/

First thing, for me at least, don't change a hitter's approach with 2 strikes. Yes, we all did it playing baseball growing up - move closer to the plate, choke up, protect. Hitting a ball is hard enough, why would you want to have a hitter thinking about something else, something new, something she doesnt really practice (her hitting coach is not working on a two-strike approach with her)? I (and the 2 paid hitting coaches on my travel team) teach that the only thing you should do different is expand the strike-zone - dont let the umpire be the reason you are out.

For me, I teach each kid what is best for the kid. If the ultimate goal of the girl is to play in college - she needs to be hitting doubles and/or HRs. But, they need to be able to HIT the ball. Especially at the Middle School level, start with having good form, good mechanics, and a good approach. Adjust from there. If she is stronger, start tweaking her launch angle for more HRs. Not as strong but a little speedier, keep working with her to hit it hard up the middle and in the gaps. If a player has a good eye and can hit the ball, the power will come as they get older.

For instance - back in my travel team's 12-14U days, we had two players that were both very good hitters. One hit around .400 every season while the other was in the .350 range. The one hitting .350 has adopted the launch angle philosophy and is now hitting around .290-.300 in high school with 3 HRs, 3 doubles, 11 RBI, and around 10 Ks in just under 40 ABs. The .400 hitter stuck with the "hit it hard where they ain't" philosophy (but does have moments where she adjusts her launch angle, mainly dependent on the situation) and is currently hitting .570 in high school, has set not only the school's season doubles record but also its career doubles record (in just this one season), is in the top 3 in doubles for the DC-area, has one HR, 15 RBI, and only 3 Ks in just under 40 ABs.

HRs are cool, no doubt. Personally, I'd still prefer the hit-it-hard kid over the launch angle kid on my team. I work with the hit-it-hard kid on the mental approach - if the score and situation are appropriate, take strikes one and two for yourself and try and crush one. Strike 3 is for the team - if you get to that point, put it in play and get on base. Luckily for my travel team, the two of them make a pretty awesome #3 and #4 batter combination!

[Spiccoli]

Launch angle is a major topic in the MLB right now. It's everywhere...

Basically, strike outs are now not deemed the negative that they were when we were younger. I heard a stat that this past April was the first time there were more strike outs than hits during a full of play (6,656 K's vs 6,360 Hits).

Now, for younger kids, I don't think this is true. Because ANY ball put into play has an excellent chance to get a runner on base because of the level of defense. Errors are just much more common, while a K is guaranteed out.

However, as you get higher up, that doesn't hold as a true. It can be argued that a groundball is worse than than a K if there's a runner on first base. While fly balls don't really hurt anything or are better because runners can tag up and advance.

I'd love to see what real life Analysts would think of TWC SS Mark Wareham. He's the perfect example of what you're talking about.

A few years ago, I might have looked at his stats and said... How is this guy an All Star? However, by today's standards, he's doing great. It's still weird to me.

156 Games
.241 AVG
.411 OBP
.411 SLG
.822 OPS
135 Total Hits
25 HR's
162 K's!!!!!!! lol
157 BB's (3rd year in row leading walks)

So... Mark tends to strike out, walk... then sometimes hit a ball in play.

[Spiccoli]

Also Chris... If you want to get more technical.

A baseball pitch never comes in perfectly level. There's always some downward angle. So a hitter that wants to maximize his bat being in the same plane as the incoming pitch, should have a some upward angle on his swing. How much though? I have no idea.

However, if you're teach kids, having them start with a more level swing makes sense because it keeps their chance of solid contact higher. But when I was coaching, I was mainly teaching just basics. Stride, hip rotation, hands through the zone (to avoid sweeping), etc... When a kid was able to put those pieces together, they would start hitting consistently and harder. I rarely focused on swing angle, because it seemed that the swing angle was just part of them. Messing with it seemed to affect all kinds of other things and create more problems.

[7teen]

My real biggest beef with this instructor has been over how he is teaching 2 of the 9U kids I coach (I've coached HS, MS, and travel teams now for about 10 years at different junctures).

This 9U kid has a huge uppercut swing and nearly falls down when he swings because he's swinging so hard with "intent" (thats the word this instructor uses). On our season, this kid has come to the plate 20 times and has struck out 12 times and has 4 hits. I look at the kid at practice and am like "they're teaching you to hit homeruns but not taught you how to HIT YET! How about we learn to hit first then worry about homeruns later."

Those comments make the instructor mad because he's teaching "intent" and thinks this is better for the kid long term. And my counter is the kid is freaking 9 years old and has struck out over half the time to the plate. I'm sorry but at 9 years old, striking out that many times only discourages you from playing. And as the kids coach, I don't want to bat a guy that strikes out that many times when I have other kids who will at least put the ball in play and make kids make plays.

[Spiccoli]

It really sounds like the hitting instructor is confusing "Swing Angle" vs "Launch Angle", due the backwards spin on the ball that solid contact produces, launch angle is greater than swing angle.

I think the same thing happens with a golf ball.

I'm not sure how he doesn't understand that a swing plane that closely matches the incoming path of the baseball isn't the optimal method for producing solid contact.



Glorious...

[GoldenOne]

9U.....Nope! Teach them to hit! However, this is all on the parents. If they are paying a hitting instructor then its on them. Now, that doesnt mean you cant try and talk to them about their approach with their son at this point but I've seen too many think that just because they are spending their money it must be the right thing. I wouldnt play the kid too much or, he'd be hitting 8th/9th in the order. When the parents start asking why he's not hitting clean-up, just tell them its your intent to win games.

We've actually got one girl on our travel team that has switched hitting coaches about every 6-8 months for the last several years because her Dad wanted her to learn from different people. She has since stuck with the one hitting coach that she felt the most conforatable with and they felt like it was the best approach overall for the girl.

[RonCo]

It's interesting to see what people involved in the process think.

To me, from afar, the whole launch angle thing is "just" another ebb in the flow. Hitters alter their approach and pitchers adjust. Pitchers alter their approach and hitters adjust. Nothing happens in a vacuum. In that light, I always find it interesting that the big HR glut in the 90s/2000s is so focused on the idea of steroids, when it's just as likely as the shrinking strike zone had as much to do with it as anything. Now the strike zone has been reset to where it used to be (and relief pitchers are now a True Thing), and hitters respond with a new approach.

[RonCo]

The prevalence of shifts is another such thing. Have a solid handful of good hitters adjust to go the other way when they get a mistake, and watch the shifts start to reduce back down. If that adjustment never happens, then the shifts stay in place.

[Lane]

So...this is complicated, but also pretty simple. Middle schoolers, and even frosh-soph kids should probably be focusing more on learning how to hit than on "launch angles."

Furthermore, middle schoolers and early HS kids will likely see little benefit (and may even be worse) by trying to lift the ball. Line drives, ground balls will see so much more success for kids vs. MLB.

Now once they're grown and playing JV, Varsity baseball, sure. Change your swing to fit your hitting profile, because at that point you have the strength to actually hit the ball out.

Bottom line, I think that coach is going a little crazy over the MLB changes. Line drives, ground balls, with an up the middle approach is gonna work for 10/10 middle schoolers and 9/10 high schoolers.

[7teen]

So...this is complicated, but also pretty simple. Middle schoolers, and even frosh-soph kids should probably be focusing more on learning how to hit than on "launch angles."

Furthermore, middle schoolers and early HS kids will likely see little benefit (and may even be worse) by trying to lift the ball. Line drives, ground balls will see so much more success for kids vs. MLB.

Now once they're grown and playing JV, Varsity baseball, sure. Change your swing to fit your hitting profile, because at that point you have the strength to actually hit the ball out.

Bottom line, I think that coach is going a little crazy over the MLB changes. Line drives, ground balls, with an up the middle approach is gonna work for 10/10 middle schoolers and 9/10 high schoolers.

What this instructor is doing is capitalizing on the craze by using this as a tool for himself to make money by teaching kids the approach that will get them in the pros or college scholarships. Stating that colleges and pros want guys who hit the ball over the defense and produce launch. The problem then falls onto coaches like me who need players who can put the ball in play, make the defense earn the out, and produce runs.

What gets me the most is that my son isn't a power hitter. He'll never be a power hitter. He's just not big enough. He's a slap hitter, excellent bunter, and has great hand eye coordination. If he tries to launch the ball right now he just hits weak popups to the OF or even in the infield. So I stress to him to hit the ball up the middle or through the holes in the defense or even use him for suicide squeezes. Things that helps the team win in my opinion. This instructor states that EVERY KID can launch and should be learning that at the earliest age possible. Hes used a golf anology to where you should have a young golfer just swing hard with his drive and learn to straighten it out later.

FWIW, this instructor played some minor league ball and started teaching hitting locally about 7 years ago. When he first started he was teaching "inside the ball approach. Trigger steps. Line drives up the middle and the other way. Let the ball travel deep and square it up. Stay balanced."

Now its "Swing hard. Swing Up. High Leg Kick. Heavy bat training..." and preaches this as the only way to hit today. I'm a believer there is more than one way to skin the hitting cat.

[Lane]

Definitely more than one way to be a successful hitter. I get that he's trying to make a living, but he's not doing these kids any favors in becoming better hitters.

[agrudez]

I wouldnt play the kid too much or, he'd be hitting 8th/9th in the order. When the parents start asking why he's not hitting clean-up, just tell them its your intent to win games.

Yikes... that is a rough take, man. He's talking about 9 years olds.

[usnspecialist]

I wouldnt play the kid too much or, he'd be hitting 8th/9th in the order. When the parents start asking why he's not hitting clean-up, just tell them its your intent to win games.

Yikes... that is a rough take, man. He's talking about 9 years olds.

At that age I have no problem with getting everyone time, but once you get the players set you should put them in the position to best maximize the production of the team. You don't put your worst hitter in the 3 spot just to make it "fair".

[agrudez]

It sounds like he is arguing for taking out a personal vendetta against the parents/hitting coach on a 4th grader, but maybe I'm reading the context around the statement wrong.

[usnspecialist]

It sounds like he is arguing for taking out a personal vendetta against the parents/hitting coach on a 4th grader, but maybe I'm reading the context around the statement wrong.

you are

[jiminyhopkins]

Sorry, just here trying to pad the ol' post count.

I can't hit.

Carry on

[RonCo]

Sean is getting into the swing of this thing.

[Ted]

I have one question and one half baked answer. Aside, I don't play baseball. I never did, and sure as hell can't now.

The question is: Is it realistic to ask a 13-15 year old to change their swing? How much can you not unlearn once you start doing it a certain way? I really don't know. If the answer is that it's really not hard, then year, teaching young kids to hit the ball in the air when that's not their natural stroke is dumb. If it's really hard, then maybe not. I guess what I'm really asking is what does it mean to teach a kid to hit. As someone who doesn't, I just don't know how much is universal, and how much is swing specific.

The half baked answer also interplays with this. Why are the kids playing? I guess at their current get, the answer would be for fun. If that's the purpose, they should b learning to hit to win (at their age the most efficient hits are probably low line drives, hard hit balls on the ground). If their are trying to become pros, and hat's the only reasons they are playing, then they should be learning "better" swings, even if they don't produce much now. Treating kids that young as a bunch of pro prospects seems rather dumb, an unrealistic.

Anyway, this guy seems like an asshat.