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League Settings

Post by Ted » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:58 am

Hey Recte, just wondering if the league setting pics in the FAQ forum are up to date. Last update says 2036 season. I get that's not frequently viewed. Really I'm just curious if the typical salary settings are still as they are in there. I'm just trying to wrap my head around them. The ones there have "superstar" salary at 14 mil AAV, which is frankly too low. But I get if that's been tinkered with over time and just never updated. You have lots of stuf to do. My question is, if it is, WTF OOTP?

Like, do those do nothing? How is OOTP generating these contract demands? Do the user controls do anything? So now Gillstrom has come down to an only marginally absurd 25 mil per, but is apparently willing to talk to the UMEBA? Probably for less? How is OOTP getting worse at this?

Anyway, I have so many questions. The first and foremost is, are the settings pics accurate, because none of the others really make sense until I know that. And if they are, how is OOTP continually getting worse at this ? What is the reason for what seem to be gradually trending upward demands, etc?

As Ron points out, this is in large part a financial sim, and for me, it's getting to the point where the product is deteriorating and nearly broken. I almost don't want to play it anymore.
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Re: League Settings

Post by RonCo » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:45 pm

We should probably make it SOP to bump those threads each year just to confirm they haven't changed. But I think the settings are still accurate based on how the game is performing. The right question in that vein is how OOTP uses those values. Nothing has really changed dramatically in that camp for several cycles (small tweaks here and there, but no giant shifts). So when you ask if OOTP is getting worse or deterioirating, the answer is no. What's happening is that you're paying more attention to how it works in these areas than you used to.

I'd think Gillstom is talking to UMEBA now because the level of the UMEBA has been reset higher. I'm not sure he would accept less from them, but I don't know. Bottom line--whatever we set those numbers at, players will ask for a large percentage more that that early in the cycle, and come down later. This isn't really right, but it's best to think of those levels as minimums players of those levels will accept in order to play--call them the Keuchel/Kimbrell lines. Again, that's not really right, but it works in a pinch.

Regardless, I think that issue (Gillstrom listening to the UMEBA) is still just a natural affect of us fiddling with league balance as we insert a new presence into the world. In a fictional meta-world, that isn't too far fetched (stars jumping leagues has happened in baseball in the early days, and happens in other sports--though it really should be for more money).

One thing that has changed in the BBA over my time here anyway, is that GMs are getting better. Meaning teams are using more of the budget that they sometimes didn't use. Of course, now there's some political pressure to stop doing that, so we'll see what happens.
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Re: League Settings

Post by RonCo » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:48 pm

Ted wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:58 am
What is the reason for what seem to be gradually trending upward demands, etc?
How do you mean this? A guy raising demands from sim to sim, or a broader view over the years? Or both?
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Re: League Settings

Post by Ted » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:52 pm

RonCo wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:48 pm
Ted wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:58 am
What is the reason for what seem to be gradually trending upward demands, etc?
How do you mean this? A guy raising demands from sim to sim, or a broader view over the years? Or both?
Broader view over the years. They've gone up. Ricardo Diaz never demanded more than 18 in an AAV from me. Ever. I signed him to two max extensions. No one EVER used to demand 30 mil AAVs, at least over my tenure here. That's all in the last five to six seasons. A 20 AAV demand used to be rare. If you tell me again that this isn't different, or it's some sort of observational bias, I will stop believing that you are a sane person.
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Re: League Settings

Post by RonCo » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:02 pm

Yeah, first, the game uses those values differently with extensions than it does in Free Agency. Extensions will always tend to be less than FA contracts, so I'm assuming the game bakes in a bit of a home discount--more for deeply loyal/low greed players.

I do think OOTP has tweaked up the range that a player will start at--but the system works under the same basis. Without looking, I think our Superstar player is set to $14M. So I pretty much expect the top to start at $26-$28M these days, and based on other factors tweak up or down from there. Like I said in your other thread, I do think too many guys start there, but I don't have the same aesthetic problem you do--and if the option is to have none go that high or to have too many go that high, I'd err on too many and let our GMs manage the prices down. Again, though, I agree with your basic desire that there be fewer of those guys.
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Re: League Settings

Post by RonCo » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:07 pm

LaLoosh, for me, as an example (as I recall it) was asking for $22-$23M as an extension, but when he got to FA was up in that $28M range. Ultimately, it's the way the game is driving players to Free Agency--which is probably not horribly wrong. (there is no "right" or "wrong" here, IMO--which I suppose you'll consider to be wrong in itself. [grin]).

It's s tough gig on the OOTP side. Lower demands and guys sign a bunch of extensions (then online leagues complain of boring free agency). Raise demands and you get people complaining that it's too hard to sign good players.

There's a balance there, but it's hard to find...and quite honestly, every online league has a different market because every online league is made up of different people.
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Re: League Settings

Post by bcslouck » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:10 pm

Don't demands have to do with money available? Couldn't there just be a lot more money available around the league, therefore, players realize they can get a lot more on the open market? Why would he sign with you for less than $20M when he knows people can afford to give him that next year? I may be off base and I'm not trying to stir up anything. Just talking/thinking out loud and looking for anwsers.
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Re: League Settings

Post by Ted » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:14 pm

RonCo wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:02 pm
Superstart player is set to $14M. So I pretty much expect the top to start at $26-$28M these days,
This is absurd. Double? Seriously? Double the typical value? You think that's okay? By the way, did we have five superstars in FA this year? Because we had five guys asking for this or more. So in reality, unless OOTP calls the top 5% of players in the league superstars, the actual asking prices are more than double the set amounts. sometimes triple.

That is complete crap. Like utter complete crap. That's shit game design. The game lets you set revenues and a salary cap. Lets you set a limited fund pool, and then more than doubles the amounts players are set to ask for, which you made based upon the settings it allowed you to enter?

That's shit design. Period. Players DON'T negotiate down . Hell, half the time, if I offer 5% less than their asking price, they RAISE their demands by a few hundred k. What players do it arbitrarily slash their asking price at some point, usually the beginning of ST. They don't all do this. It's seems random.

This is shit. Designing as system that asks for user input, then ignores that input and does something completely different, something that is incompatible with the amount of money and cap involved, and gives you no way to analyze why that is happening is a shit system.

But hey. Everybody play perfect team. Give us your micro-transaction money.

Give me a break. OOTP is deteriorating.
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Re: League Settings

Post by Ted » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:16 pm

bcslouck wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:10 pm
Don't demands have to do with money available? Couldn't there just be a lot more money available around the league, therefore, players realize they can get a lot more on the open market? Why would he sign with you for less than $20M when he knows people can afford to give him that next year? I may be off base and I'm not trying to stir up anything. Just talking/thinking out loud and looking for answers.
I feel like Ron has showed that the amount of money available hasn't really changed much. Not by the amounts the players are demanding. There is a somewhat limited pool of revenue. If one of us suddenly made 300 mil in a year, the other teams would make less.

Now, the amount of uncommitted money does change. But for player demands to change drastically based on that amount would be a poor design. It's not really how real life works, and would cause massive fluctuations year to year. That's really not a good plan. I don't know if it is doing this or not.
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Re: League Settings

Post by RonCo » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:19 pm

One of the things I loved about this league when I was looking at joining was how transparent it was about publishing its settings.

I'm making this up at this point because--to be clear-- don't know the levels or specifically how it works. But when I look at how the game is working in our environment these days, I'd look at those settings and say:
  • Superstar Basement level (minimum they'll agree to): $11M-$14M per, some higher
  • Superstar FA Asking Price: $26-$28M per
  • Superstar Most Likely Signing Level (assuming "routine" market forces driving BBA GMs): $17-$20M per
  • Superstar Extension Demands: $16M-$22M (depending on lots of factors)
None of these would be set in stone, though.
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Re: League Settings

Post by RonCo » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:22 pm

bcslouck wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:10 pm
Don't demands have to do with money available? Couldn't there just be a lot more money available around the league, therefore, players realize they can get a lot more on the open market? Why would he sign with you for less than $20M when he knows people can afford to give him that next year? I may be off base and I'm not trying to stir up anything. Just talking/thinking out loud and looking for anwsers.
There is OOTP mythology that says cash available makes a big difference. I think that's always been wrong to at least the degree people assign it as true. Cash available probably does make some difference...but not very much. In addition, as Ted says, I'm pretty sure the game controls cash available through revenue streams it assigns. I've posted many financial reports that, if you read between a few lines, show what the game is doing.
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Re: League Settings

Post by Ted » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:22 pm

RonCo wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:19 pm
One of the things I loved about this league when I was looking at joining was how transparent it was about publishing its settings.

I'm making this up at this point because--to be clear-- don't know the levels or specifically how it works. But when I look at how the game is working in our environment these days, I'd look at those settings and say:
  • Superstar Basement level (minimum they'll agree to): $11M-$14M per, some higher
  • Superstar FA Asking Price: $26-$28M per
  • Superstar Most Likely Signing Level (assuming "routine" market forces driving BBA GMs): $17-$20M per
  • Superstar Extension Demands: $16M-$22M (depending on lots of factors)
None of these would be set in stone, though.
None of those are what is happening either. So just keep ignoring reality. Something like 3 players per year are signing in excess of 22 mil from FA, and another 3-4 are doing so as player extensions. So unless we have 7 or so "superstars" signing new deals every season, you are completely off base.
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Re: League Settings

Post by bcslouck » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:27 pm

Ted wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:16 pm
I feel like Ron has showed that the amount of money available hasn't really changed much. Not by the amounts the players are demanding. There is a somewhat limited pool of revenue. If one of us suddenly made 300 mil in a year, the other teams would make less.

Now, the amount of uncommitted money does change. But for player demands to change drastically based on that amount would be a poor design. It's not really how real life works, and would cause massive fluctuations year to year. That's really not a good plan. I don't know if it is doing this or not.
I swore I thought I've heard that before. In my other league, we at one point had people starting at wanting $40M a year and come down eventually. Now, I haven't seen that in a few years. And I don't know how was available league wide then compared to now. Usually, the top demands are around what we were this offseason. That is in a no cap league, by the way. And I don't believe anything was changed settings wise.

I don't know on the design. MLB seems to have increases in contracts when you see teams sign massive media contracts. That creates more money so there is more of a market. But that has stopped at this point because of the harsher luxury tax rules and they can also lose draft picks by signing certain guys. Also, analytics have kind of changed who should be earning what. You won't see Chris Davis get $162M anymore.

I don't think about it much, honestly. That's not a dig. I'm glad someone does so we can keep things in check, or attempt to. I don't know enough about how OOTP handles certain things. Now if the salary cap was bumped, which could help, will demands go up? If they do, it doesn't help and that would prove the point of the more money available, the more they ask for. Is there in game inflation we don't know about? I know people have mentioned that too. I don't know what else to say, man.
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Re: League Settings

Post by Ted » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:30 pm

Look Ron, I've been whining about this every year for 5-6 seasons now. It's been getting worse and worse. You've been one of the loudest "OOTP is fine and the economy is what the economy is and market forces, etc" voices. We've not really addressed it at all. What I'm TELLING you is that I can no longer operate my team. I don't sign FA deals at ALL, and I can't extend my own top two pitchers at the prices they want, neither of whom is a top ten player in the league, when the next four highest contracts I have are 37 million combined.

So, I'm either unable to read numbers, do simple math, or remember things from as recent as a couple years ago in a game I've literally put thousands of hours into, or you are not seeing the picture accurately.
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Re: League Settings

Post by Lane » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:38 pm

RonCo wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:19 pm
One of the things I loved about this league when I was looking at joining was how transparent it was about publishing its settings.

I'm making this up at this point because--to be clear-- don't know the levels or specifically how it works. But when I look at how the game is working in our environment these days, I'd look at those settings and say:
  • Superstar Basement level (minimum they'll agree to): $11M-$14M per, some higher
  • Superstar FA Asking Price: $26-$28M per
  • Superstar Most Likely Signing Level (assuming "routine" market forces driving BBA GMs): $17-$20M per
  • Superstar Extension Demands: $16M-$22M (depending on lots of factors)
None of these would be set in stone, though.
So, I'm with Ted here. If the setting says Superstar average salary $14M then the numbers you're saying here don't make sense. Either the setting is non-functional or the setting is terribly named. Not to mention the fact that players are asking about 50% higher than your high numbers here.
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Re: League Settings

Post by Ted » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:41 pm

I will make one last statement and call it quits.

Our league has lower revenues and payrolls than major league baseball. This is a fact. Yes that is an uncapped league.

However, the top quarter of our players as asking for more in AAV than the top quarter of MLB players ask for. Forget the Bryce Harper Manny Machado stuff.

Think about all your guys asking for 20 mil extensions. Think about all the FA's asking for 25 mil. And ask yourself if that number is higher or lower than the number of MLB players asking and getting for that amount.

And our league has less revenue, and lower payrolls.

This part of OOTP is broken.
Last edited by Ted on Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: League Settings

Post by RonCo » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:41 pm

Ted wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:22 pm
None of those are what is happening either. So just keep ignoring reality. Something like 3 players per year are signing in excess of 22 mil from FA, and another 3-4 are doing so as player extensions. So unless we have 7 or so "superstars" signing new deals every season, you are completely off base.
Yes...those would fit into market forces on our BBA GMs. LaLoosh would have signed if I'd have given him $22M, but I didn't because I couldn't afford it in my structure. So he went to Free Agency and got more. We can be upset that the $ are different from what the MLB does, but it was a great move by LaLoosh.

Our market dynamic is different from MLB, and I suspect it always will be. That's really all I can say.
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Re: League Settings

Post by RonCo » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:32 pm

Lane wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:38 pm
RonCo wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:19 pm
One of the things I loved about this league when I was looking at joining was how transparent it was about publishing its settings.

I'm making this up at this point because--to be clear-- don't know the levels or specifically how it works. But when I look at how the game is working in our environment these days, I'd look at those settings and say:
  • Superstar Basement level (minimum they'll agree to): $11M-$14M per, some higher
  • Superstar FA Asking Price: $26-$28M per
  • Superstar Most Likely Signing Level (assuming "routine" market forces driving BBA GMs): $17-$20M per
  • Superstar Extension Demands: $16M-$22M (depending on lots of factors)
None of these would be set in stone, though.
So, I'm with Ted here. If the setting says Superstar average salary $14M then the numbers you're saying here don't make sense. Either the setting is non-functional or the setting is terribly named. Not to mention the fact that players are asking about 50% higher than your high numbers here.
I'd agree it's not well-named.

But I'm not understanding you when you say the numbers are 50% off.

- Top Free Agents are asking $26-$30M, aren't they? That's what I project will happen.
- Superstars that sign early are making more than $20M, but that's a factor of our GMs being willing to sign them for those numbers (hence driven by the market).
- Superstars that are not yet signed are now in the $17M-$20M zone. Which is probably about where they'll sign.
- No superstar will likley sign for less than $10-$14M

You can question, as Ted is, whether the came is assigning "superstar" properly, and I'd agree with that question.

But, seriously, maybe I'm just out of my head, but other than Gillstrom (who is now asking big dollars, but only for three years...and will sign for a little less if someone offers him), the FA market seems to me to be laying about where my bullet points are projecting,

--------------------

I sympathize with Ted and his issues with signing extensions and whatnot. I get it. I mean, Yellow Springs lost Laloosh, De Castillo, Souza, and Garcia all in one season...and all four made great personal decisions because they made more money than they would have gotten from me. The drain got "so bad" that I made a bit of a mistake and signed McNeill to a deal that was bigger than it would have been because I let him walk to Free Agency rather than pay him what he wanted to extend. Another great move by McNeill that cost me an arm and a leg. If we didn't have a wave of good-not-great kids coming along, YS9 would have had to tear down and rebuild.

For me, losing those guys is part of the role play fun. For others maybe not so much.I get it. I'm just not sure what else to say about it.

We can adjust the salary levels, but then almost no one will go to Free Agency, and that would be boring. If we adjust the salary cap, that would likely move the bar a tiny bit upward but maybe not. I don't really know, because I don't know the mechanics of exactly how the game decides these things.
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Re: League Settings

Post by Lane » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:35 pm

Sorry, I misread the numbers. Disregard my 50% comment.
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Re: League Settings

Post by RonCo » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:39 pm

Just note: I'm not saying "OOTP is fine," here. I'm saying OOTP is what it is, and the BBA is fine enough.

But, yes, I agree 100% that the BBA is not the MLB in this area, and if you want to apply MLB scales to us, you're going to be disappointed. I'm open to ideas here, but unless we remove the salary cap completely I cannot think of a way to match the MLB in any way that will be "right."
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