PP Reward: Position Specialization Change Proposal

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Should there be a change to the Reward?

Poll ended at Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:03 am

Yes, I like the proposal
11
65%
Yes, but I have a few questions/problems (explain below)
2
12%
No, the reward is fine as is
4
24%
 
Total votes: 17

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Re: PP Reward: Position Specialization Change Proposal

Post by bschr682 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:15 am

My point is playing corner OF and CF are way more different than most people think and the game works just fine with its experience + ratings = position ratings formula. We don't need to artificially move stuff around because someone forgot to cross train an aging bat.

Personally the only PP reward that I think we should ever use is the reliever conversion. Maybe the age inquiry because its kind of funny. The rest are fairly close to cheating. I mean ill use 'em if they are there but I really, really dislike that we can change a players personality at a whim.
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Re: PP Reward: Position Specialization Change Proposal

Post by udlb58 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:37 pm

bschr682 wrote:My point is playing corner OF and CF are way more different than most people think and the game works just fine with its experience + ratings = position ratings formula. We don't need to artificially move stuff around because someone forgot to cross train an aging bat.

Personally the only PP reward that I think we should ever use is the reliever conversion. Maybe the age inquiry because its kind of funny. The rest are fairly close to cheating. I mean ill use 'em if they are there but I really, really dislike that we can change a players personality at a whim.
It isn't about forgetting to cross train an aging bat. It is about guys who have no use to any team trying to win at a position they are currently at either rotting in FA or being signed by teams out of the playoff race to shoehorn them into some sort of roster spot for the FI boost. Again, we're not talking about making a player great, we're talking about making an elite level defender passable and an average defender something less than God-awful to start the year. They are still ending up at roughly 20% of their possible experience by the end of spring training for players with 0 EXP.

With a season's worth of innings (117 starts, 1000+ innings) and two springs, Pierce is still a lower rated right fielder at 7/8/9 ratings, than Sergio Ramos at 5/6/10 ratings.

I know about cross-training prospects and players, just take a look at my system (when I got my hands on them: Chavez had only 1B/CF exp, Noboru was only 3B, Rutledge was only LF, Braun played 0 games at SS in my minors, Adam Johnson has been taught CF, Clark had 0 games at 1B before I got him, Abrizo learned 2B during the regular season but is blocked by Gustafsen learning 2B in WL, Darcy was drafted as a 1B, Nasquez was a natural SS......)

The game IS broken in terms of the way it takes so long for a player to gain enough experience to not be a ham-fisted chump. It is done this way by the game to keep the AI from shoehorning terrible defenders into positions because they are the best bat at the position on the team and played 10 games there back when they were a minor leaguer.

Still, I'd be fine if it were just a 20 EXP cap. Just something to get started before the season.
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Re: PP Reward: Position Specialization Change Proposal

Post by bschr682 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:46 pm

udlb58 wrote:
bschr682 wrote:My point is playing corner OF and CF are way more different than most people think and the game works just fine with its experience + ratings = position ratings formula. We don't need to artificially move stuff around because someone forgot to cross train an aging bat.

Personally the only PP reward that I think we should ever use is the reliever conversion. Maybe the age inquiry because its kind of funny. The rest are fairly close to cheating. I mean ill use 'em if they are there but I really, really dislike that we can change a players personality at a whim.
It isn't about forgetting to cross train an aging bat. It is about guys who have no use to any team trying to win at a position they are currently at either rotting in FA or being signed by teams out of the playoff race to shoehorn them into some sort of roster spot for the FI boost. Again, we're not talking about making a player great, we're talking about making an elite level defender passable and an average defender something less than God-awful to start the year. They are still ending up at roughly 20% of their possible experience by the end of spring training for players with 0 EXP.

With a season's worth of innings (117 starts, 1000+ innings) and two springs, Pierce is still a lower rated right fielder at 7/8/9 ratings, than Sergio Ramos at 5/6/10 ratings.

I know about cross-training prospects and players, just take a look at my system (when I got my hands on them: Chavez had only 1B/CF exp, Noboru was only 3B, Rutledge was only LF, Braun played 0 games at SS in my minors, Adam Johnson has been taught CF, Clark had 0 games at 1B before I got him, Abrizo learned 2B during the regular season but is blocked by Gustafsen learning 2B in WL, Darcy was drafted as a 1B, Nasquez was a natural SS......)

The game IS broken in terms of the way it takes so long for a player to gain enough experience to not be a ham-fisted chump. It is done this way by the game to keep the AI from shoehorning terrible defenders into positions because they are the best bat at the position on the team and played 10 games there back when they were a minor leaguer.

Still, I'd be fine if it were just a 20 EXP cap. Just something to get started before the season.
Again, this isn't normal. Part of the problem you are having in that one instance is that Pierce is a big lazy dummy and frankly I want that to matter. An intelligent hardworking player, a la Torii Hunter, can make the switch much quicker even in OOTP.
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Re: PP Reward: Position Specialization Change Proposal

Post by udlb58 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:19 pm

bschr682 wrote: Again, this isn't normal. Part of the problem you are having in that one instance is that Pierce is a big lazy dummy and frankly I want that to matter. An intelligent hardworking player, a la Torii Hunter, can make the switch much quicker even in OOTP.
Danny Albright doesn't stand out in intelligence. After 1,000 innings, he's a 5 in LF and was an .885 EFF with a -2.7 ZR his first year there in 2029. Chavez has high intelligence, at the time he had 9 range and 10 error and posted a -4.5 ZR and .915 EFF in his first season at 2B (250 innings). It was over 900 innings before he posted a + ZR or EFF and that was just a 7 game sample in 2028. Noboru is unspectacular in terms of intangeables, but it was still over 800 innings before he posted a + ZR or EFF in LF (6 range) and he's -4.4 in 831 innings during his whole career at LF. Adam Johnson, 10 range, 10 error, no negative personality traits, he was still a -10.1 ZR and .954 EFF in 2029 with about 250 innings under his belt from the year before. This year, he's gone past 2000 innings at CF and his rating is a 10, he put up a +10.0 ZR and 1.041 EFF season. Arbizo, high WE, no negative intangibles, -5.3 ZR and .954 EFF in 685 innings as he learns 2B. Tony Gustafsen, no negative intangibles, high leader, drafted with very little defensive EXP (poor pos rating despite high fielding ratings), was a -7.4 ZR SS until WL last year. Since then (and after passing 2,000 innings) he's suddenly a +4.1 ZR SS over his last 1100 innings.

I can go on. It takes about a complete season plus one or two springs for a player with enough talent to be solid-to-good, to become even below average at a position. For SS/CF, the cutoff seems to be 2,000-2,100 innings; but those should be difficult positions to learn.
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Re: PP Reward: Position Specialization Change Proposal

Post by bschr682 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:52 pm

First of all none of those numbers matter. Those are stats. Stats fluctuate sometimes wildly year to year because well just because. Guys with great power ratings don't hit many homers some years. Guys with great stuff ratings have years they don't get many K's. Stands to reason guys with great defensive prowess have bad years too. The bottom part of what you wrote is what counts.

If it takes a ballplayer 1 spring + season + next spring to go from 0 to good at a new position, I'd say that's awesome and why change it? If it concerns you that he will butcher you early while he is beginning to learn, send him to AAA.

Pierce had literally never played a single game in RF until 2029. He played in only 93 games that year as a RF. Last season he played only 27 games in RF. He hasn't even had a full seasons worth of games in RF and the game says he is 5 rating. That's plenty fast enough. What is the problem?
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Re: PP Reward: Position Specialization Change Proposal

Post by indiansfan » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:00 pm

If this passes will it implement this offseason?
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Re: PP Reward: Position Specialization Change Proposal

Post by udlb58 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:05 pm

bschr682 wrote:First of all none of those numbers matter. Those are stats. Stats fluctuate sometimes wildly year to year because well just because. Guys with great power ratings don't hit many homers some years. Guys with great stuff ratings have years they don't get many K's. Stands to reason guys with great defensive prowess have bad years too. The bottom part of what you wrote is what counts.

If it takes a ballplayer 1 spring + season + next spring to go from 0 to good at a new position, I'd say that's awesome and why change it? If it concerns you that he will butcher you early while he is beginning to learn, send him to AAA.

Pierce had literally never played a single game in RF until 2029. He played in only 93 games that year as a RF. Last season he played only 27 games in RF. He hasn't even had a full seasons worth of games in RF and the game says he is 5 rating. That's plenty fast enough. What is the problem?
Not from 0 to good, from 0 to not suck eggs.

Sure, stats fluctuate, but every single person learning a new position winds up on about a -10 ZR pace if they have the base fielding stats to be good at the position one day. By year two they are at least not horrible, and usually are close to what you would expect in year 3. If it took a full season+ to learn a new position, you wouldn't see guys moving very much IRL. I know this has been discussed on the big boards and it has been stated that the system works the way it does to limit unrealistic roster choices by the AI. We don't have those AI restrictions (or shouldn't)
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Re: PP Reward: Position Specialization Change Proposal

Post by bschr682 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:25 pm

Highly disagree that using ZR makes any sense here at all. Its a result. And its relative to the league. Should a converted player in the course of a single season be better than his peers that presumably have been playing RF their whole careers? No.

And if you must use ZR, what part of Pierce's positive ZR last season in RF sucks eggs? If anything id say Pierce is the case that proves my point and not yours. In less than a season he is a competent RF already? Also you did him no favors whatsoever by playing him in CF so much again. Had you played him 100% of the time in RF in 2029 and last season we wouldn't even be talking. He'd be an 8 or 9 in RF and have a shot at a Zimmer this year. Seriously look at his RF stats. 3 errors in 120 games played? Again I ask why you think there is a problem at all?
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Re: PP Reward: Position Specialization Change Proposal

Post by udlb58 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:12 pm

bschr682 wrote:Highly disagree that using ZR makes any sense here at all. Its a result. And its relative to the league. Should a converted player in the course of a single season be better than his peers that presumably have been playing RF their whole careers? No.

And if you must use ZR, what part of Pierce's positive ZR last season in RF sucks eggs? If anything id say Pierce is the case that proves my point and not yours. In less than a season he is a competent RF already? Also you did him no favors whatsoever by playing him in CF so much again. Had you played him 100% of the time in RF in 2029 and last season we wouldn't even be talking. He'd be an 8 or 9 in RF and have a shot at a Zimmer this year. Seriously look at his RF stats. 3 errors in 120 games played? Again I ask why you think there is a problem at all?
Well, he had about a .500 OPS, so I went out and got Sunshine. Then it became either him in CF or Cardenas at 2B.

Still, I'm comparing to real life. When has a competent defender in real life moved down the spectrum, to a comparable new position (across the IF or OF) and been a complete hack and a defensive liability for any length of time? You're telling me that if Schwarber got hurt again, and the Cubs decided to move Zobrist there to fill in, that he'd look worse than Schwarber there because he's never started a game in LF as a professional? OOTP would say that is how it should work. And he would be bad there all year long too.

If you feel like the timeline is right due to game balance and this 20-40 EXP bump would be too powerful, that is one thing. To say the defensive development model in OOTP is accurate to real life...that I do not agree with.
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Re: PP Reward: Position Specialization Change Proposal

Post by bschr682 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:56 pm

The defensive spectrum really ought to be fleshed out a bit. First Zobrist has played 143 games in LF. Second the move from RF to LF isn't actually as tough as the move from CF to RF/LF would be. Playing a corner is just flat out different than playing CF. Same as it is easier to move from SS to 3B than it is from SS to 2B even though 3rd is lower on the spectrum.

So no I don't expect Zobrist to struggle. But Zobrist is a bad example as he really is mr super sub.
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Re: PP Reward: Position Specialization Change Proposal

Post by udlb58 » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:30 am

bschr682 wrote:The defensive spectrum really ought to be fleshed out a bit. First Zobrist has played 143 games in LF. Second the move from RF to LF isn't actually as tough as the move from CF to RF/LF would be. Playing a corner is just flat out different than playing CF. Same as it is easier to move from SS to 3B than it is from SS to 2B even though 3rd is lower on the spectrum.

So no I don't expect Zobrist to struggle. But Zobrist is a bad example as he really is mr super sub.
I must have been looking at his minor league stats, which baseball-reference has as 0 starts (though that may be incomplete). His 792 innings would still be below the point where, at least with the guys I've seen, he would no longer be a negative in the field.

If learning a corner is so much different for a CF, why are the Pirates moving McCutchen to RF and Marte to CF instead of just flipping Marte to RF? McCutchen has played almost exclusively in CF with about 200 innings in a corner during his whole professional career (0 in his 8 previous seasons in the majors). Yet, shockingly, he hasn't been a comedy of errors like he would be in OOTP.

Mookie Betts had played less than 200 innings in RF before moving last year, and he won a Gold Glove in his first year in RF.

Carlos Beltran has been fine moving to RF back in 2011 after playing just 3 games there through his 13 year career up until that point.

After shoulder problems sapped his arm strength, Ryan Zimmerman moved to 1B with 0 issues.

Wil Myers went from catcher to CF in the minors, to RF early in his major league career, to a mid-season move to 1B back in '15 and he's had just 4 errors in over 1500 innings at the position since.

Eugenio Suarez had just 350 innings at 3B before his move there last year.

In 14 games this year, Brad Miller has more innings at 2B than he's had in any season in his professional career, but that didn't stop TB from moving him there this season and he's been just fine in his move from short to second.

Starlin Castro had less than 500 innings at second in his professional career before his full-time move there last year, where he put up better numbers than he ever did as a shortstop (fewest errors, highest fielding%, UZR, defensive runs, etc)
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Re: PP Reward: Position Specialization Change Proposal

Post by udlb58 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:10 pm

bump
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