PP Reward: Position Specialization Change Proposal

[udlb58]

I propose we make a change to the Position Change PP Reward, as it hasn't been used once as far as I can tell. Here is the current reward - http://montybrewster.net/MBBA/phpBB3/vi ... =32&t=1139

My proposal

What it Costs:
1) A GM will spend 10 PP per 10 points of experience gained to use this reward, and can only use this reward on one player per season.

Who is Eligible:
1) Any position player.
2) Player must have at least 200 Exp at the position he is "being moved from" (GM must, spend 10 PP to first inquire to see if player has at least 200 Exp, the fee is waived if the Reward is used)

How it Works:
1) You can improve one Position's Experience by removing points from another already established position.
2) To improve the Experience rating on the selected position by 10 points on the internal 1-250 scale, you must take 50 points on the internal 1-250 scale away from another position.
3) You may only improve ONE position.
4) You may not improve a position experience higher than "100" on the 1-250 scale.
6) You may only improve positions that are LEFT on the Defensive Spectrum, as follows (only able to move across OF/IF, except for 1B/LF):
[tab=30]First Base, Left Field, Third Base, Second Baseman, Shortstop, Catcher
[tab=30]or
[tab=30]First Base, Left Field, Right Field, Center Field

Example:
1) "Jim Fielder" currently has an internal experience of 250 at Shortstop, Third Base, and Center Field
2) GM decides to spend 40 PP to specialize him as a 2B.
3) His only established position RIGHT of 2B is SS, so his points for 3B and CF cannot be used here.
4) 200 points are taken from SS (250 exp drops to 50), and 40 points added to 2B Exp (0 to 40)


Reasoning for changes: Right now, it takes too long for veteran players to learn a 'new' position if they have not had any experience outside their main position of use through their career. It can take over half season for a player to earn enough experience to be semi-competent, even at 1B and LF. This would allow declining players to get an enough of an Exp boost at a 'lesser' position to be considered for a move, but the 100 Exp cap means that players will still need at least a Spring to be able to start every day. The reward could still be used on younger players, but only ones who are so hopeless at the more premium positions that you would consider removing their experience there (i.e. you wouldn't use the reward on an "8" SS/2B/CF).

So, what are your thoughts?

[bigmike13]

I am curious as to why the "Only Left on the defensive spectrum".

It isn't uncommon to see guys in the minor leagues move around from LF to CF and vice versa as they mature and their skills (or the needs of the team) changes. I have a guy in the minors who is a 9 LF and a 6 CF but his skill would play nicely in CF. Why can't I take some points from LF and boost his CF?

I am NOT COMPLAINING, I just don't understand the reasoning behind that portion.

[udlb58]

I am curious as to why the "Only Left on the defensive spectrum".

It isn't uncommon to see guys in the minor leagues move around from LF to CF and vice versa as they mature and their skills (or the needs of the team) changes. I have a guy in the minors who is a 9 LF and a 6 CF but his skill would play nicely in CF. Why can't I take some points from LF and boost his CF?

I am NOT COMPLAINING, I just don't understand the reasoning behind that portion.

Well, my main reasoning was that you can still move guys around in the minors as fielding stats (specifically poor fielding due to learning a position hurting team performance) aren't really an issue like they are in the BBA. This reward as is, and in this proposal, is about shifting experience around. Being able to move a prospect's Exp from a lesser position to a more prime one would make the reward too powerful IMO. But that is certainly open to debate.

[JimBob2232]

Does it make sense to lose a 250 SS and turn him into a 50 SS and 40 2B? I am just not sure that even sounds remotely appealing to me.

[aaronweiner]

I am curious as to why the "Only Left on the defensive spectrum".

It isn't uncommon to see guys in the minor leagues move around from LF to CF and vice versa as they mature and their skills (or the needs of the team) changes. I have a guy in the minors who is a 9 LF and a 6 CF but his skill would play nicely in CF. Why can't I take some points from LF and boost his CF?

I am NOT COMPLAINING, I just don't understand the reasoning behind that portion.

Well, my main reasoning was that you can still move guys around in the minors as fielding stats (specifically poor fielding due to learning a position hurting team performance) aren't really an issue like they are in the BBA. This reward as is, and in this proposal, is about shifting experience around. Being able to move a prospect's Exp from a lesser position to a more prime one would make the reward too powerful IMO. But that is certainly open to debate.

It actually wouldn't be if the scale was much greater.

[recte44]

We must follow the defensive spectrum. ONLY left, otherwise we're just playing frankenstein.

[udlb58]

Does it make sense to lose a 250 SS and turn him into a 50 SS and 40 2B? I am just not sure that even sounds remotely appealing to me.

Well, you're not losing a 250 (12/10) SS, you're losing the 250 EXP at SS. A prime example would be Timmy Moulin circa 2028 or Carlisle and Pierce now. Their range has/had dropped enough that they were no longer even average at their position, but because they had always played that position, to move them anywhere else means absolutely terrible defensive performance for half a season or more. So you end up either having a well below average player at SS/CF, or you sacrifice half a season of terrible results at 2B/3B/RF/LF as the player gains experience at the position.

Right now, Carlisle was a former very good defensive 3B, but his range has lumped enough that he's no longer really viable at the position; but if someone wanted to play him at 1B, he would look like he doesn't even know what hand to put his glove on. I understand having to learn the subtleties of a new position, but a well above average 3B should have the ability to move to 1B if he needs, without having to go through 1/3 to 1/2 a season of horrific fielding results. This reward would allow that.

[udlb58]

We must follow the defensive spectrum. ONLY left, otherwise we're just playing frankenstein.

I agree

[bcslouck]

So what would this change mean for me (or anyone who may acquire him.. hint hint) for converting Kirshbaum to 3B. Based on the old system, I could use 2B and CF for the conversion. But on the new one, I could only use 2B? Though as I type that, I see you don't have to keep a position at a minimum anymore. So I could use his limited SS XP in the new one too?

[bschr682]

Bad planning in the minors is the only thing that makes this reward remotely relevant. Players gain gobs of position experience during spring training too. And no, just because you are a great CF it does not mean you would be an amazing corner outfielder or 1B right away when you hit 30 years old and your range slips. It takes time and it should take time. Plan ahead.

[ae37jr]

6) You may only improve positions that are LEFT on the Defensive Spectrum, as follows (only able to move across OF/IF, except for 1B/LF):
[tab=30]First Base, Left Field, Third Base, Second Baseman, Shortstop, Catcher
[tab=30]or
[tab=30]First Base, Left Field, Right Field, Center Field

I like the concept. The only part I don't like is including the catcher. Unless I'm misunderstanding, you can move a catcher to SS? I know it's just experience and most catchers suck at inf range, so the likelihood of someone using the reward in this manners is slim. It just seems very unrealistic to turn an aging catcher into a SS/2B. I'd recommend a different spectrum for catchers where they could only be converted to CIF/COF.

[Ted]

So my big problem with this and the previous version of the award is that it absolutely destroys the guys ability to play his old position. So one owner decides he needs a 3B, signs a shortstop and ruins him for everyone else. That's why I proposed a version (see the other thread) with very limited rules on what you can do that pretty much ensures it will only be used to move aging players who are lumping anyway. (Recte seemed okay with that one)

[udlb58]

Bad planning in the minors is the only thing that makes this reward remotely relevant. Players gain gobs of position experience during spring training too. And no, just because you are a great CF it does not mean you would be an amazing corner outfielder or 1B right away when you hit 30 years old and your range slips. It takes time and it should take time. Plan ahead.

At the beginning of 2029, Pierce still had 9 range and a whole spring in RF (started every single game). He still posted a -7.3 ZR with a .941 EFF. Most of that -7 ZR came in the first 3 months of the season. It takes at least half a season to become effective at basically any position outside of 1B in OOTP, even if they have elite fielding ratings.

[udlb58]

So what would this change mean for me (or anyone who may acquire him.. hint hint) for converting Kirshbaum to 3B. Based on the old system, I could use 2B and CF for the conversion. But on the new one, I could only use 2B? Though as I type that, I see you don't have to keep a position at a minimum anymore. So I could use his limited SS XP in the new one too?

No, with the current reward, Kirshbaum would be ineligible because he has played in the majors.

[udlb58]

So, Tyler asked about this last season and Matt you told him to post a poll, but it never happened. I'd like to second the idea of looking at it again. I agree with removing the age restriction, so you can say move an aging CF to a corner or a SS to 3rd or whatever. So how about this proposal? I'll make a poll if you want.

Any player is eligible. The reward can only be used to move "down" either the OF or IF spectrum. It can't be used to put an OF in the IF or vice versa. You can only use it if a player has a rating at the new position of 3 or less, and they have to be 6 or higher in the position they are already at. The reward is to use 0-40 PP to get a player 0-40 points of experience on the internal slider at an eligible position as described above.

The idea is that a former CF of SS SHOULD be able to play the other positions either in the OF or IF, respectively with at least some proficiency. So if you have an OF with a 7 rating in center, but no rating in RF and a 1 in LF, you can get a jump start on transitioning him and maybe get another point or two of defense at the position in spring training.

This sounds powerful, but the limit of having to have a 3 or lower rating at the position you are transferring to would limit it somewhat, and I think it helps patch a problem OOTP has with realism in its defensive ratings. A competent (which is why we said at least 6) defender at a premium position SHOULD be able to play at at least a slightly below replacement level at other similar positions.

So my big problem with this and the previous version of the award is that it absolutely destroys the guys ability to play his old position. So one owner decides he needs a 3B, signs a shortstop and ruins him for everyone else. That's why I proposed a version (see the other thread) with very limited rules on what you can do that pretty much ensures it will only be used to move aging players who are lumping anyway. (Recte seemed okay with that one)

Posted Ted's proposal above.

To me, the reason to use this reward is to move an aging player to a more useful position as he is no longer able to play his current position, or a player who was generated with experience at a position he will never be able to play in the BBA.

I suppose you could lower the Exp loss at the better position to make it more appealing to more prime age players, but I really think there should be some trade off (probably at least 1:1, or 1:2). I generally don't like being able to artificially boost a rating without a negative offset (I don't really like the personality rewards not having this, BTW)

[Ted]

40 points of experience on the internal scale isn't such. For most players at most positions, it's gonna be 1 or 2 points worth of positional rating. Your'e still gonna have to move to the player in the spring, but this gives you a chance of coming out of spring training with a rating of 4 maybe, rather than 2.

And again I agree with Brett, you shouldn't need to use this on a young guy if he was developed correctly. As far as not having a negative offset, I just don't think this version of the reward should have one as it only really is useful for older guys. Furthermore, the only reason to have it in the first place is because the game is stupid about being able to play other positions. There's just no reason a former competent CF or SS shouldn't be able to play at least mediocre LF or 3B, respectively. All my version of the award does is give you a jump start on making that transition in the spring, In most cases, all it will do is change thing so that instead of staring spring at 0, which is ridiculous, you start at 1 or 2.

[bschr682]

Bad planning in the minors is the only thing that makes this reward remotely relevant. Players gain gobs of position experience during spring training too. And no, just because you are a great CF it does not mean you would be an amazing corner outfielder or 1B right away when you hit 30 years old and your range slips. It takes time and it should take time. Plan ahead.

At the beginning of 2029, Pierce still had 9 range and a whole spring in RF (started every single game). He still posted a -7.3 ZR with a .941 EFF. Most of that -7 ZR came in the first 3 months of the season. It takes at least half a season to become effective at basically any position outside of 1B in OOTP, even if they have elite fielding ratings.

Yea that's the point. It should be like that and then later in the season he catches on. It should hurt for awhile. Growing pains.

[bcslouck]

So what would this change mean for me (or anyone who may acquire him.. hint hint) for converting Kirshbaum to 3B. Based on the old system, I could use 2B and CF for the conversion. But on the new one, I could only use 2B? Though as I type that, I see you don't have to keep a position at a minimum anymore. So I could use his limited SS XP in the new one too?

No, with the current reward, Kirshbaum would be ineligible because he has played in the majors.

Oh really? I didn't realize that.

And I know the bad planning posts are probably general, but they came after my Kirshbaum post so I'd like to just say I didn't get to develop him. I don't know if I would of had the wherewithal to make him a 3B if I had the chance. I may of did exactly as the guy before or how the game did it. It just so happens that now, I'm overloaded with OF's and I see value in his skills to be able to move him. I considered giving it a shot last year, but I didn't have the OF to make that happen. Plus, giving him a shot in CF, which that door has now closed with Quezada coming to the Bigs. If I can't do anything to improve him that's fine. He's a better option at 2B and 3B (even as a terrible defender for awhile) than I have and probably in FA anyway.

Back to the proposal though. I do like it for those aging guys. Moving an OF to a corner spot or 1B will make easier to keep those guys around if they can still hit. Which while it is just a game, it seems unrealistic to see a 35 y/o who can hit in FA because he can't hack it at SS. Chances are, that guy would be moved to 3B or 1B to keep that bat.

[udlb58]

40 points of experience on the internal scale isn't such. For most players at most positions, it's gonna be 1 or 2 points worth of positional rating. Your'e still gonna have to move to the player in the spring, but this gives you a chance of coming out of spring training with a rating of 4 maybe, rather than 2.

And again I agree with Brett, you shouldn't need to use this on a young guy if he was developed correctly. As far as not having a negative offset, I just don't think this version of the reward should have one as it only really is useful for older guys. Furthermore, the only reason to have it in the first place is because the game is stupid about being able to play other positions. There's just no reason a former competent CF or SS shouldn't be able to play at least mediocre LF or 3B, respectively. All my version of the award does is give you a jump start on making that transition in the spring, In most cases, all it will do is change thing so that instead of staring spring at 0, which is ridiculous, you start at 1 or 2.

I can be swayed. I had the big hit because the original had a big hit and I didn't want to stray too far from it. In my mind, this will be used on guys who will only play the old position in cases of emergency anyway, so I'm not tied to the 1:5 ratio in the proposal.

[udlb58]

Bad planning in the minors is the only thing that makes this reward remotely relevant. Players gain gobs of position experience during spring training too. And no, just because you are a great CF it does not mean you would be an amazing corner outfielder or 1B right away when you hit 30 years old and your range slips. It takes time and it should take time. Plan ahead.

At the beginning of 2029, Pierce still had 9 range and a whole spring in RF (started every single game). He still posted a -7.3 ZR with a .941 EFF. Most of that -7 ZR came in the first 3 months of the season. It takes at least half a season to become effective at basically any position outside of 1B in OOTP, even if they have elite fielding ratings.

Yea that's the point. It should be like that and then later in the season he catches on. It should hurt for awhile. Growing pains.

Really? A good center fielder with good defensive ratings still should be the worst defender in right field for half a season? It takes him that long to even be competent? That just isn't realistic. Sure, a move from the infield to outfield, or the opposite, can be a huge learning curve and even turn out to be a disaster.

When Torii Hunter was finally moved to RF mid-season, he went from being one of the worst center fielders in the game to an above average RF, right in the middle of the season. He had only played 80 innings in RF, 11 years prior to the switch. Sure, his skills continued to erode and 4 years later he was no longer a competent RF, but he was able to move mid-season.

This is basically an offseason program where they get a jump on learning a new position before spring. So they come into the new year with a 3 or 4 rating at the position instead of 1 or 2.