HOF Talk: Juan Karyabwite

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HOF Talk: Juan Karyabwite

Post by RonCo » Wed Aug 02, 2023 6:06 pm

This is another in what may become a series of posts on Hall of Fame candidates during this 2055-56 voting session. As noted earlier, I’m underwhelmed by the choices, so I’m digging in to see what gives. Are these guys as weak as I think they are?

This time I’m looking at C Juan Karyabwite . Karyabwite was a lifelong member of the Calgary Pioneers with a very strong peak span of seven years when he burst onto the scene, then he had a resurgent 2042 to tag on an extra 5 WAR.He could do a little of everything. Run, hit, and throw (117 OF kills, 15 in one season).

First we’ll look at the indicators:

JAWS 43.1 vs. LF HoF average 52
Gray Ink: 15 (23)
Black Ink 126 (112)
HOF Standards 50 (54)
HOF Monitor 133 (133)

The Black Ink is great, meaning he led the league in various categories several times. His Standards and Monitor look good, too. Overall this package is among the best of the candidates I’ve written about so far.

He was a six-time Zimmer Glove defender, and a four-time All-Star. Add in a couple Pucket Silver Sluggers at LF and you’ve got a fun resume. While the Pioneers did not win a championship in his tenure, he was three times a post season series MVP.

So his candidacy is fair enough.

The issue though is that are only 47-48 WAR (depending on where you look), he gets more than a little overpowered:
RankPlayerWARYEAR
1Daniel Labrie*71.911995-2012
2Alfredo Salazar*68.872025-2041
3Mike Love64.072014-2032
4Felipe Vega#63.332039-2054
5Juan Rivera#59.082040-2054
6Fernando Castillo#49.762040-2054
7Juan Karyabwite46.892032-2049
8Will Simmons39.811999-2013
9Jim Wilson*38.772002-2015
10Jorge Rodríguez*38.042018-2034

Vega and Rivera are both going to surpass Mike Love. At 38 years old, Castillo will probably not. Castillo has another three WAR to add to these numbers this year and is under contract for as many as three more years at only $3.5M. If he keeps adding to that total, there’s a substantial gap from Karyabwite to the next guy. Maybe 6, maybe 8, maybe 10 WAR. If Castillo passes Love, that makes this conversation easier, because Mike Love, at 64 WAR, is not in the Hall of Fame.

That’s a lot of WAR.

That said, old-timer Jim Wilson is in, as is Jorge Rodriguez—though I think the game is screwed up here. The link points to Jorge Rod, the Seattle CF with 83 WAR, not the 31 WAR Jorge-Rod everyone knew as “The Sheriff.” So I think we can ignore that.

Bottom line, there’s probably no one watching this vote more closely than Fernando Castillo. Because if Karyawite gets in at this level, the door opens a bit further for Castillo.

So, let’s that a minute and look at his leaderboard totals, wherein we see that:
  • He leads the league’s left fielders in games, at-bats, hits, runs, singles, doubles, and stolen bases.
  • There’s also caught stealing, but we won’t mention that.
  • Teammates say he grilled up a good burger, too.

Here are his Bill James questions:


1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball?

I don’t think so. He did lead the league in batting average and hits a couple times each.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

He was at times, but those were sometimes mediocre Pioneer teams.

3. Was he the best player in baseball (or in the league) at his position?

It’s fair to say there were a couple seasons where he was the best LF in the league.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

The team didn’t win, but yes, he had major impact in several postseason tilts.

5. Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?

Borderline. He fell off at 32-33, depending on where you want to cut it.

6. Is he the very best player in baseball history who is not in the Hall of Fame? (Remember, this was written before the heart of the PED era)

See Love, Mike. No matter how you stretch the numbers, it’s hard to say 48 WAR is better than 64 WAR.

7. Are most players who have comparable career statistics in the Hall of Fame?

You tell me. I’d tend to lean to no, but guys with 3,000 hits have all made the Hall. So I could be wrong.

8. Do the players numbers meet Hall of Fame standards? (“Hall of Fame standards” are another James invention, the results are listed on every player page on Baseball Reference, you can see what the numbers are by which James calculates those “standards” by visiting Baseball Reference here)

Karyabwite’s numbers are okay there. Not sure-lock, but good.

9. Is there evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

No.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?

Since Love is no longer eligible, I’ll say yes.

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

He did not place in the voting at any time.

12 How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the other players who played in this many go into the Hall of Fame?

Four-time All-Star.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

Early in his career, yes. Later, not so much.

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

Mainstay in Calgary.

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

We will stipulate he was an upstanding baseball citizen.
Off Topic
Bottom line assessment – A lock for the Pioneer Hall. He made 41% last year, and I’d guess that’s not going to change much this year. Time will tell. I’m probably going to kick the can down the road, myself, and look at that list again next year—which I think will be his last.
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Re: HOF Talk: Juan Karyabwite

Post by recte44 » Wed Aug 02, 2023 6:54 pm

Yeah…..but……3000 hits!

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Re: HOF Talk: Juan Karyabwite

Post by Trebro » Wed Aug 02, 2023 7:21 pm

I admit anyone who gets to 3,000 hits without straining to do so (like a 50 ab . 182 average final year to get 9 hits) is a lock for me. I realize Im old school that way but certain counting stats matter a lot to me. this is one. he's on my ballot again.
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Re: HOF Talk: Juan Karyabwite

Post by jleddy » Wed Aug 02, 2023 7:33 pm

Looking just at the WAR, typically this type of player shouldn't sniff the Hall.

That said, I feel like Karyabwite is worthy but the case isn't cut and dry.
  • Me: The dude could hit!
    Devil's advocate: But not really for power.
  • Me: He was a menace on the paths!
    DA: Yeah, in an era which saw much more action on the bases than we've recently become accustom to.
  • Me: He's a six-time Zimmer winner! Less than 10 players have won that many in their career!
    DA: Sure, in left field. It's not like he was a shortstop or anything.
In the end, I think the two elite skills, plus the career .300/3000 hits package, plus the fun footnotes (RotY, 3x playoff series MVP) earns him my vote before he's overshadowed by the Super Drafts candidates quicky lcoming down the pike.


Sidenote: Glad to see these individual candidate threads come back to life. Fun way to examine their cases and sound off with opinions.
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Re: HOF Talk: Juan Karyabwite

Post by recte44 » Wed Aug 02, 2023 8:03 pm

For the record, he is the only guy I voted for this year.

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Re: HOF Talk: Juan Karyabwite

Post by indiansfan » Thu Aug 03, 2023 10:57 am

I still have to say 3000 hits and 6 Zimmers, which I think is more gold gloves than any other LF. I am one that hates the weight WAR puts on walks and he is a classic case. That is why he has low WAR, only 484 career walks. However, he only struck out 802 times in over 10000 career at bats, which is pretty great.

Most hits of any eligible player not in the HOF. 2nd most runs of any eligible player not in the HOF (Puckett 1st). Everyone knows how I feel, so yep I voted for him.
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Re: HOF Talk: Juan Karyabwite

Post by Trebro » Tue Oct 03, 2023 8:24 pm

Bumping for current discussion
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Re: HOF Talk: Juan Karyabwite

Post by Trebro » Tue Oct 03, 2023 8:30 pm

As I said last year, I think Karyabwite is a HoF player and I felt that way the first year I came here. i don't think advanced metrics work for a player like this, who was recognized during his time (6 Zimmers) and has the 3,000 hit accomplishment plus other strong side stats.

I will be voting for him again and encourage others to do so.
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Re: HOF Talk: Juan Karyabwite

Post by pandan » Wed Oct 04, 2023 7:35 am

indiansfan wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2023 10:57 am
I still have to say 3000 hits and 6 Zimmers, which I think is more gold gloves than any other LF. I am one that hates the weight WAR puts on walks and he is a classic case. That is why he has low WAR, only 484 career walks. However, he only struck out 802 times in over 10000 career at bats, which is pretty great.

Most hits of any eligible player not in the HOF. 2nd most runs of any eligible player not in the HOF (Puckett 1st). Everyone knows how I feel, so yep I voted for him.
Yeah I think this is enough. WAR doesn't tell the entire story here and this guy's set of accolades earn him my vote. Dude could hit.

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