HOF Talk: Hsin Mei

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HOF Talk: Hsin Mei

Post by RonCo » Wed Aug 02, 2023 2:41 pm

So I’m scanning the Hall of Fame ballot and thinking, wow…this is slim pickings. And I ask myself if I’m just being biased by old-timer-itis. So let’s get back into this thing and see what I think. Starting with Hsin Mei, who had a spectacular career, but whose WAR is … not eye-splashy.

Of course, there are a few caveats we could take into account there, specifically that catchers in this modern-day era play under tighter fatigue environments, so there could be career/playing time issues to look at. I should note, though, that with a 20-season career, that’s not really a problem for Mei. His games played is quite high relative to other HoF and HoF candidates at the position (he’s #5 on the all-time list for AB).

First let’s look at a few indicators:

His JAWS score is 45.7. The average HoF catcher is 48. So that’s low. His Gray and Black Ink scores are not good (2 and 25 vs 23 and 112 standards). HOF Standards say 51 vs. the 54 target. The HoF Monitor puts him at 119 vs. 133.

So all of those are a little ugly. Not horribly ugly, but also just a little laggy.

Anyway. Let’s take a look at the All-time WAR list for catchers and see what we think:

RankPlayerWARYEAR
1Jeremy Hunter*74.731996-2011
2Cisco Arreola*72.212025-2041
3Elroy Hinson*71.562020-2039
4Jason Dunn*71.252011-2029
5Hank Brewer*70.092027-2044
6Dexter Sheehan*64.982003-2017
7Rafael Ávila61.491999-2015
8Lewis Stephens60.822014-2029
9Ernest Watts*58.112010-2025
10Hsin Mei57.522031-2050
11Juan Castillo57.372019-2035
12Tobias Kelly56.392001-2017
13Pedro Berrios56.252002-2017
14Sam Brewington55.952001-2017
15Hurley Reyes54.491990-2008
16Maxwell Weiss, Jr.54.382010-2028
17Francisco Flores52.272033-2051
18Luis Barrera49.712030-2046
19Peter McClure48.792014-2025
20Octávio Moreno#47.812040-2054

So, yeah, I’m not totally insane here. Including Mei will set a new WAR baseline for the position. How you feel about that probably depends a lot on how you view WAR, how you view OOTP’s ability to calculate WAR, and also how you view counting stats.

For example:
  • At 471, Mei has 23 more home runs than any catcher in BBA history
  • He’s #4 on the catcher’s doubles list.
  • #9 on all-time catcher’s hits list
I’m not massively impressed with the hits level, but obviously his power was exceptional for the collection.

So, yes, I need to consider adding Mei to my list, and thereby lowering the WAR bar. I should note that this means both Rafael Avila and Lewis Stephens probably get a little more pissy. Stephens was #4 on the catcher’s HR list, afterall, and his 393 on the list is 402 on his player card…so maybe there’s something weird there. At 57 WAR, one suggests Jaun Castillo has a grudge to hold, too. He’s in the top five all-time of catcher doubles.

Still, I suppose we can tell him to sit down and be quiet. That top 5 in doubles does not equate to the #1 home run hitter in his position.

There are other things that come to mind, too. For example, the classic Bill James questions:



1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball?

No. He never won a Sawyer Silk anyway, so that’s a fair indicator for now.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

Possibly. I’d have to do more work to answer it.

3. Was he the best player in baseball (or in the league) at his position?

Now we’re getting someplace. Mei won a Zimmer, and was a four-time All-star, as well as took home four Pucket Silver Slugger bats. So there was a time where he was arguably the best catcher in baseball.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

He was a Cartwright and Doubleday MVP. So, yes.

5. Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?

Indeed.

6. Is he the very best player in baseball history who is not in the Hall of Fame? (Remember, this was written before the heart of the PED era)

I suppose that depends on how you define best. See Avila and Stephenson above.

7. Are most players who have comparable career statistics in the Hall of Fame?

Hmm…by WAR, no. But catchers are a different breed, right?

8. Do the players numbers meet Hall of Fame standards? (“Hall of Fame standards” are another James invention, the results are listed on every player page on Baseball Reference, you can see what the numbers are by which James calculates those “standards” by visiting Baseball Reference here)

No, as noted above. Or at least they are on the very low side.

9. Is there evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

I suppose this has to do with park factors or other such stuff. I have no idea how to assess it.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?

Yes.

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

Again, zero. But his record says he came in second in eh voting in 2036, so that’s once.

12 How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the other players who played in this many go into the Hall of Fame?

Five times. I would say that’s not a ton relative to other HoFers, but it’s enough.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

Sure, why not?

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

Not really.

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

We will stipulate he was an upstanding baseball citizen.
Off Topic
Bottom line assessment – Mei is a weakish candidate, but he gets my vote for a couple reasons: 1) he was a top player at his position for some time, but more importantly he is the #1 HR hitter of all time at the position. Quite honestly, if he were even a little lower—like #4, then I’m not sure the first criteria would be quite enough. But the fact is the fact, and he is #1.

So, I don’t think I was wrong to question it, but I’ll be voting for him.
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Re: HOF Talk: Hsin Mei

Post by Jwalk100 » Wed Aug 02, 2023 3:33 pm

My thoughts as well. I could argue against it too but I will go the other way.

Taking everything in it's totality he got my vote.
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Re: HOF Talk: Hsin Mei

Post by BaseClogger » Wed Aug 02, 2023 4:44 pm

He got my vote for being a catcher with 400 HRs and respectable enough stats in the other categories.
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Re: HOF Talk: Hsin Mei

Post by recte44 » Wed Aug 02, 2023 6:56 pm

He’s close for me. I “tabled” him for another season.

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Re: HOF Talk: Hsin Mei

Post by jleddy » Wed Aug 02, 2023 8:20 pm

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Re: HOF Talk: Hsin Mei

Post by indiansfan » Thu Aug 03, 2023 11:02 am

Got my vote for his bat. That is a lot of homers for a catcher, plus he was always one of the top catchers in the league even in years he didn't win a Puckett.
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Re: HOF Talk: Hsin Mei

Post by Trebro » Fri Aug 04, 2023 3:00 am

I think I passed in first go. but he's on my ballot now. Those dingers just can't be ignored.
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Re: HOF Talk: Hsin Mei

Post by Trebro » Tue Oct 03, 2023 8:23 pm

Bumping for current discussion
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Re: HOF Talk: Hsin Mei

Post by pandan » Wed Oct 04, 2023 7:36 am

This post convinced me to vote for Mei. If he played other positions it may not be as impressive, but as a catcher, I think he's worth the vote.

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Re: HOF Talk: Hsin Mei

Post by Trebro » Wed Oct 04, 2023 2:32 pm

pandan wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2023 7:36 am
This post convinced me to vote for Mei. If he played other positions it may not be as impressive, but as a catcher, I think he's worth the vote.
Agreed. that's what i did last year. he was a no until Ron posted this.
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