Why Does John Hale Suck?

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Why Does John Hale Suck?

Post by RonCo » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:23 am

Catcher John Hale recently signed a two-season deal with the Charlotte Cougars, which I think was a pretty good thing. Hale will get $2.5M this year, and the team holds an option for a second season at $1.5M.

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Does John Hale
Actually Suck?
Listening to the recent BBA Today (#67), in which Randy and Ted break down the early stages of the 2044-2045 free agency period, I think it was Randy who asked why John Hale sucks—or at least why he isn’t better. The answer, of course, is simple and somewhat obvious. It’s been obvious since the day Hale broke into the league—when, as a 23 year-old second season player, Hale ripped BBA pitching for a 22 homer, .250/.342/.552 slash line in the first half of the season, and was selected for the All-Star team, and then was traded by Des Moines to Omaha in a deal that made league pundits erupt in howls. It was obvious in the years after, as Hale put up okay numbers (1.5-2.5 WAR), but nothing like the 4-5 WAR that amazing three months back in 2038 promised. And, it’s been obvious over the past two seasons in Madison, where the park has ripped up his primary skill—that being hitting homers against right-handed pitching.

The problem, you see, is that people around the league thought he was a full-time player, and the fact is that he simply cannot hit left hand pitching to save his life.

None.

So the full answer as to why John Hale sucks is that he doesn't--at least not against right handed pitching.

His splits last year:
  • vRHP: 310 AB, 15 HR, .206/.285/.390
  • vLHP: 159 AB, 4 HR, .132/.182/.220
Yes, he struggled even against RHP last year, but look at that Madison park first. That's just going to happen sometimes, and as we'll see in a minute, his work against RHP overall is solid.

That 159 AB against LHP is no aberration, though. He got 140 at bats against LHP in 2042, 174 in 2041, 133 in 2040. Hell, in that amazing 2038 season, he got 140 against LHP—but the difference was that in Des Moines John Hale got exceedingly lucky in the 68 AB he got there: posting 5 HR, and a .235/.456./.749 slash that he has essentially never duplicated (one can argue that 2040 might have been better, but it’s close).

John Hale’s lifetime OPS vs. LHP is .582. Read that again. That’s .582 (with a “five” at the front). Versus right handers, Hale (.814 OPS) is a different beast.

So, yeah, John Hale is a platoon player, and it’s not even close. Against lefties, Hale is sub-replacement level (-3.3 WAR lifetime). Against righties, he’s a solid little catcher (10.4 WAR)—not the All-Star everyone thought he was, but a decent guy to have around.

The problem is that GMs and managers keep giving him 150 AB against lefties.


In Retrospect

In the recent past we’ve had a few trades in which the viewpoint has been “this one is going to be interesting to look at again in a few years.” In retrospect, the Hale trade is one of them. As noted above, the league erupted when Des Moines traded Hale, suggesting clearly that the Kernels had been destroyed.

In return for Hale, they got Benjamin Clark—what the league considered a crappy little catcher—Juan Garcia, and Pedro Tanon, what the league thought were two pretty “meh” pitching prospects.

It was a bloodbath out there for several days. I mean. The “league” was not happy.

At all.

And yet, even at the time, the writing was on the wall.

Clark, who was actually not really crappy, and was indeed a pretty decent little catcher as long as you didn't need a ton, posted 2.3 WAR for Des Moines over the nest three seasons. Not great, but exactly what one might expect, and only 1 WAR less than Hale posted in both Omaha and Madison over the same time. For that 1WAR difference, Des Moines picked up the two pitchers.

Pitching as s swing man, Garcia has gone on to post 12.2 WAR with the Kernels, and at 25 years old is going to be a fixture around the league for some time. He’s making $4.6M in his last arbitration season, which means he’s either due an extension or will get paid well in Free Agency. He had a tough season last year, but over five seasons he’s posted a 105 ERA+, despite pitching for some pretty bad teams.

Tanon has become a solid little reliever, throwing 3.1 WAR and a slightly above league average ERA+ in his four seasons. He’s been hampered a bit by a string of small injuries, but at age 24 and with two more arbitration seasons left, (1) is still providing value, and (2) at age 24 still has room to grow into an even more valuable pitcher if and when that 6/10 curve ball comes in.

As a platoon catcher John Hale—it turns out—is pretty okay, but unless he breaks out in some way that I just don’t think is practical to expect of a now-30-year-old catcher, Des Moines won this trade by a not inconsiderable margin.


The Bottom Line

The role of catcher is a tough one in the BBA. There are several pretty good ones in the league right now, and that's made more messy by the fact that several of the better catchers make their bucks with the glove rather than the lumber. As a defensive catcher Hale is ... well ... he's okay, kid of. Don't expect any Zimmers. Call him low-end, but not a total embarrassment.

If Charlotte can pair him with a decent RHB platoon mate, look for his numbers to rise.

If not, then John Hale will, indeed, suck--or at least under-perform, which for most of us, is pretty much the same thing.
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Re: Why Does John Hale Suck?

Post by aaronweiner » Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:53 pm

What a nice, completely random coincidence that both pitchers bumped.

Des Moines still lost that trade at the time by a massive margin.

That is one of the all time, epic, hard to believe it worked out that way trades.

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Re: Why Does John Hale Suck?

Post by aaronweiner » Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:58 pm

Also, the trade has to be put into better context. It's worth noting that Hale would put up a 2.4 WAR, then a 2.7 WAR at catcher in 2039-2040 for $500,000, while Benjamin Clark would put up a 1.0 and a 0.5 WAR at catcher for those two seasons which didn't even equal Hale's 2041 season (1.7 WAR).

Also, the catching pool was even thinner then than it is now, and it's fairly thin now.

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Re: Why Does John Hale Suck?

Post by Ted » Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:55 pm

Yup, I'm with Aaron. The results of those pitchers after bumping is irrelevant, unless you're going to try to convince me that Ed, or anyone for that matter, could spot a future bumper that far out.

Clark has put up less than 3 WAR since that Trade. Hale has put up 8.4.

And what Aaron said right above this. Hale was an above average catcher on a min sal. Clark was a below average one. Garcia was 7/6/7 and Tanon was 6/6/7. It was a bad deal. Bad process, good results.
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Re: Why Does John Hale Suck?

Post by usnspecialist » Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:59 pm

i suppose the tobias wulms trade was a fair one too, given that he flamed out in spectacular fashion.
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Re: Why Does John Hale Suck?

Post by Ted » Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:02 pm

usnspecialist wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:59 pm
i suppose the tobias wulms trade was a fair one too, given that he flamed out in spectacular fashion.

I've actually come around on this one. I kind of like the 3B that Des Moines got, and my opinion of 17 year old uber prospects with no development has changed. I still wouldn't have made it, but it don't think it's terrible.

I also don't think the Hale trade was as bad as I reacted to it. It was bad, but not awfully so. It's just that poor Ed, rest his soul, just seemed to keep doing it over and over. And so I think that magnified any time he seemed to have a small deficit in a trade. If I regret anything, its the public dumping on it. It wasn't fair to Ed, who loved the BBA and his team. Maybe he wasn't the savviest GM, but from all I can tell, he was a hell of a guy and didn't deserve to be treated like that.
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Re: Why Does John Hale Suck?

Post by usnspecialist » Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:09 pm

Ted wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:02 pm
usnspecialist wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:59 pm
i suppose the tobias wulms trade was a fair one too, given that he flamed out in spectacular fashion.

I've actually come around on this one. I kind of like the 3B that Des Moines got, and my opinion of 17 year old uber prospects with no development has changed. I still wouldn't have made it, but it don't think it's terrible.

I also don't think the Hale trade was as bad as I reacted to it. It was bad, but not awfully so. It's just that poor Ed, rest his soul, just seemed to keep doing it over and over. And so I think that magnified any time he seemed to have a small deficit in a trade. If I regret anything, its the public dumping on it. It wasn't fair to Ed, who loved the BBA and his team. Maybe he wasn't the savviest GM, but from all I can tell, he was a hell of a guy and didn't deserve to be treated like that.
i agree that i think we were a bit hard on ed at times and that far off prospects are dicey.
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Re: Why Does John Hale Suck?

Post by aaronweiner » Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:21 pm

Ted wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:02 pm
usnspecialist wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:59 pm
i suppose the tobias wulms trade was a fair one too, given that he flamed out in spectacular fashion.

I've actually come around on this one. I kind of like the 3B that Des Moines got, and my opinion of 17 year old uber prospects with no development has changed. I still wouldn't have made it, but it don't think it's terrible.

I also don't think the Hale trade was as bad as I reacted to it. It was bad, but not awfully so. It's just that poor Ed, rest his soul, just seemed to keep doing it over and over. And so I think that magnified any time he seemed to have a small deficit in a trade. If I regret anything, its the public dumping on it. It wasn't fair to Ed, who loved the BBA and his team. Maybe he wasn't the savviest GM, but from all I can tell, he was a hell of a guy and didn't deserve to be treated like that.
He absolutely wasn't the savviest GM. He was a nice guy who consistently finished last, but still, a nice guy.

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Re: Why Does John Hale Suck?

Post by aaronweiner » Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:28 pm

usnspecialist wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:59 pm
i suppose the tobias wulms trade was a fair one too, given that he flamed out in spectacular fashion.
Wulms got hurt. That happens with young pitchers, of course, but if he hadn't there was no reason to believe that was anything but a calamity too.

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Re: Why Does John Hale Suck?

Post by RichY » Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:09 pm

Cool to know the story about my backup catcher. Still crappy except for his glove.
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Re: Why Does John Hale Suck?

Post by RonCo » Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:11 pm

I had drafted him at one point, so I was keeping tabs on him. He's had an eventful career. :)
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Re: Why Does John Hale Suck?

Post by GoldenOne » Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:44 pm

RonCo wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:23 am
Catcher John Hale recently signed a two-season deal with the Charlotte Cougars, which I think was a pretty good thing. Hale will get $2.5M this year, and the team holds an option for a second season at $1.5M.

If Charlotte can pair him with a decent RHB platoon mate, look for his numbers to rise.

If not, then John Hale will, indeed, suck--or at least under-perform, which for most of us, is pretty much the same thing.
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Re: Why Does John Hale Suck?

Post by CTBrewCrew » Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:49 pm

Hale was ok for me while in Madison - 3 decent years. but in the end his skills as @RonCo said drop off vs lefties. That and he wanted waaay to much for a PT player - time to move on.
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Re: Why Does John Hale Suck?

Post by aaronweiner » Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:11 pm

It's not like catcher is amazingly deep in the BBA...

but John Hale's about to make the All Star Game again.

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Re: Why Does John Hale Suck?

Post by GoldenOne » Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:49 pm

Granted, its only 29 ABs, but against LHP Hale is .310/.310/.483 this season. And, he is currently throwing out 45.1% of the SBs attempts against him (career average is 28.1%.)

He, apparently, likes hitting in Charlotte too. In 103 ABs, he's .291/.381/.515 but still a respectable .232/.324/.411 (95 ABs) on the road.

Also, its okay to vote for him as he has no AS bonuses in his contract!
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Re: Why Does John Hale Suck?

Post by RonCo » Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:43 pm

If you can keep him at 50 AB against LHP he should look pretty good.
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Re: Why Does John Hale Suck?

Post by GoldenOne » Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:06 pm

RonCo wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:43 pm
If you can keep him at 50 AB against LHP he should look pretty good.
Maybe even enough to be an All Star.
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Re: Why Does John Hale Suck?

Post by RonCo » Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:38 pm

John " Diesel Dave, All Star" Hale
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Re: Why Does John Hale Suck?

Post by CTBrewCrew » Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:15 am

Nice to see Hale bounce back some - he was my first contract extension in MAD. Always had a sweet spot for him.
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