2037: EVERYTHING'S RELATIVE, RIGHT?

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2037: EVERYTHING'S RELATIVE, RIGHT?

Post by RonCo » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:49 am

NOTE: I ADDED PITCHER TYPE DATA SPLITS IN A LATER POST Given our conversations in various parts of the forum, and with a little prodding from Ted, I thought I’d post a conglomerate report on the status of Ratings across the BBA. This is theoretically valuable because, unless you’ve been living under a rock, you know we’ve adjusted our rating scheme from absolute to relative. This has a tendency to moosh ratings together, and unless you’re ready for them, can be a little jarring.

A couple thoughts to start…

1) On the whole I agree with Ted’s conversation. The game it attempting to “normalize” the ratings. Kind of.
2) It’s that “kind of” that can screw us up.
3) The main thing to know is that you are no longer seeing player’s actual ratings, but are instead seeing the game’s attempt to show a player’s ratings relative to each other.
4) My own view is that this approach is neither good nor bad, but merely different. IMHO, the game is not as good at this as some would like to say it is…but the concept of relative ratings is certainly solid, and if you squint just right it can feel more like real baseball.

All that said, things are not quite as rosy as they might oughta be. The game is not perfect in its application of the theory folks are tossing around. I should note here than I am not privy to the algorithms it uses, all can do is count ratings and show where it’s on and off—which is what I’ll do here.

Let’s start with

OVERALL RATINGS

All I’m doing here is counting the numbers of ratings of each 20-80 category, split by hitters and pitchers. Of particular note, I’m not yet cutting on specific position or, probably more important, starter and reliever. That should really be done, but I’m out of time today. Regardless, here are some histograms:

2037-OVL-histograms-BBA.PNG

You can see they are not really true normal. Batters have this weird little double camel’s hump with a low at 45 and 50. Pitchers do, too, though it’s pushed down into the 45 category. There’s also some noise in the upper regions…and, of course, selection issues at the bottom of the scale. Baseball talent is not actually normally distributed in the composite.

Still, these are not horrible charts. I mean, I suggest we think of 55 as being the mean average required to really play a lot. 50 is okay. 40-45 make do, and 20-35 are your basic replacements and bit players you can squeeze extra value out of if you have sharp enough eyes.

Of course, these are just gross, overall ratings. They depend on OOTP getting that right, and to be honest, while I love their effort, I’ve generally thought the OOTP overall ratings were more visually pleasing than particularly bank-worthy.

So, let’s go to where the magic happens.

REGULAR COMPONENT RATINGS

First,let’s do something silly and just take every rating, regardless of whether it’s a CON or an EYE or a STU and throw them together into two charts—one for hitters and one for pitchers. It’s not useful at all for assessing BBA competitive advantage, but it’s a great exercise for seeing what the concept of relative ratings is trying to do. Here they are.

2037-RELRAT-All.PNG

Ultimately thees look pretty nice. Hitters are centered on 6 and form a pretty nice looking normal curve. Pitchers are centered between 6 and 7 and also form something that looks normal. I note that this is why I pushed back on Ted’s commentary that “5” is the centerpoint that OOTP is shooting for. That’s not really right. If you’re trying to use just one number, it’s better to think of it as a “6”. However, that’s dangerous too, because (unfortunately for the theory) the average rating, even with relative ratings on, is not the same for each skill type. The distribution is more compressed than it is with absolute ratings, but it’s still not so cohesive that you can just wave your hand and say “5” (or “6”) is league average.

To see this, here are some messy histograms, showing the number of players in each component rating.

2037-RELRAT-COMP.PNG

For hitters, Gap skews toward 7, CON is a 6, but EYE edges toward 5. AVK has a strong peak at 6, but skews toward 7. Power is on the edge of 6 and 7 as a center-point. The normality of the curves are pretty good, though—which is the major feature of relative ratings.

When we look at pitchers we see this even more readily. Stuff peaks at 7 and skews toward 8. Control peaks at 6 and is the most perfectly normal curve of them all, and MOV sits between 5 and 6. All of these ratings have longer tails on the lower rating scales.

SUMMARY

For my money, it’s helpful to realize that none of this actually changes the results on the field. The game still works with the raw data we’ve always seen before. To Ted’s point, this approach “cleans up” some of the confusion that can come from a league where ratings are moved off the norm by a ways…but as you can see, they can only go so far—you’ll still benefit to a degree based on how you read the ratings.

I hope, however, that some of this gives you a better idea of how you want to read the ratings, because part of the charm of the game is that the way you read the ratings will be different than how I read them (Gap, for example, is valuable to me, not so valuable to Ted…that’s not going to change). Understanding that the “average pitcher” is not 5/5/5 or 6/6/6, but is probably 7/5/6 now, and knowing that the ratings will still shift a little over time is still going to be useful.
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Re: 2037: EVERYTHING'S RELATIVE, RIGHT?

Post by 7teen » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:45 pm

Thanks Ron. As one that doesn’t dive deep into the fame as you guys this helps. Reading Ted’s post and your reply yesterday I was trying to configure the “average” players ratings.

Looks like an “average” hitter is something like a 6/7/7/5/7 or something in that general ballpark.

I know you guys say be hesitant when looking at it that way but for those like me who want it to be simple I think we need that simplistic angle. But even then clearly, a 6/7/7/5/7 1B isn’t going to be that good but a 6/7/7/5/7 2B can be a solid player.

The hardest part for me right now is getting my eyes to believe a dude with very few BLUE RATINGS is actually good.
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Re: 2037: EVERYTHING'S RELATIVE, RIGHT?

Post by RonCo » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:50 pm

7teen wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:45 pm
The hardest part for me right now is getting my eyes to believe a dude with very few BLUE RATINGS is actually good.
Yes.
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Re: 2037: EVERYTHING'S RELATIVE, RIGHT?

Post by Lane » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:00 pm

beautiful. thanks Ron. Ultimately I think this should make things better, especially for new people coming into the league.
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Re: 2037: EVERYTHING'S RELATIVE, RIGHT?

Post by jiminyhopkins » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:29 pm

This is wonderful and all, but it must be asked... what's the point? Why make this change now? Why change at all? What was wrong with the old ratings? Who was complaining about it?

If this change was just made for shits and giggles, then just say so. Otherwise, some justification is in order. I've read a million posts that say what the changes are, but have yet to see a compelling reason why, other than someone just had a burr up their ass and wanted to shake things up.
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Re: 2037: EVERYTHING'S RELATIVE, RIGHT?

Post by bcslouck » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:33 pm

jiminyhopkins wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:29 pm
This is wonderful and all, but it must be asked... what's the point? Why make this change now? Why change at all? What was wrong with the old ratings? Who was complaining about it?

If this change was just made for shits and giggles, then just say so. Otherwise, some justification is in order. I've read a million posts that say what the changes are, but have yet to see a compelling reason why, other than someone just had a burr up their ass and wanted to shake things up.
Yeah I'd like to know as well. I feel like this may screw up some plans I had for players due to ratings drops and people not being able to see passed them. Whether that was trades or hoping for comp picks in free agency.
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Re: 2037: EVERYTHING'S RELATIVE, RIGHT?

Post by Ted » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:19 pm

I can't speak to the timing. I'm not in charge of anything. Likely the best timing would have been right after the season started. You'd want to avoid free agency. Right before of during FA would be the worst time. Right at the trade deadline is a bit tough too. But regardless, any change like this is going to cause a big adjustment period.

So then, if it's so much work, why? Again, I didn't and don't have any input, but as a regular GM I can see lots of good reasons.

The biggest reason is to drop the learning curve for new GMs, and to stop having a moving target for what a good player is. We have had a slow general upwards ratings drift (which I'm told is common in OOTP) to the point where in ten to fifteen years a pitcher was going to have to have 11 stuff to even be viable. When I got here the best pitchers in the league (and I mean the top two or three) were 11/7/8 and the best hitters were 8/8/9/8/8 or something like that. There were at most ten players in the league with ratings that good. It's only been a decade and a half, and now there were maybe 40 or so like that. This change does away with that and sets a pseudo permanent baseline.

Another reason is that the distribution of ratings now tells you how rare a rating is. While as Ron (thanks again) showed, it's not exactly a normal distribution, it's close enough for horseshoes and hand grenades. You can look at a 9 and say, "That's top 15-20 percent." Low end of top 15-20 percent, but still. Again, with the fact that we're not quite a normal distribution makes things a tad murky, but now the ratings mean something in a vacuum. Why is that important?

Let's look at some example, starting with Randy's favorite pitcher, Jon Reed. Before, lots of people (myself included) wondered why this guy was so effective. Now you can just look at him and say, he's got off the charts stuff. Better than plus plus. Averageish movement, and well below average control. His overwhelming stuff makes up for his lack of control, and his movement is just fine. You don't really need to know anything else about the league. Even if you didn't know many of our averages were closer to 6 than 5, you'd still be right. (Before he was just another guy with super high stuff, but now his stuff remains way above average while everyone else dropped)

Take a hitter, say the very busy J.J McQuade. You see an contact on the high end of average, average to low average power, well below average eye. So a rather mediocre hitter. Probably below average overall. Again, you don't need to know anything else about league ratings, or other SS ratings. Overall, you can add in his glove and wheels and see a starter, but that's it. A decent starter. Had we had relative ratings, I doubt he ever gets that big of a deal.

You can do this with any player now. Yes we knew the averages before, but this is a lot more intuitive than knowing that 8.5/5.5/6 is your average starter and 7/6/5.5/5/6 is your average position player and the numbers on contact range from 5-12 but motion only ranges 4 to 9. Also, 9 contact is a lot more common than 9 motion so 9 motion is twice as rare as 9 contact and so on ...

The point is, this takes away a lot of the guesswork in evaluating players. The differences between players are easier to understand. If you want to understand that better, go take a look at San Fernando or Jacksonville's offense compared to other teams. Or look at Brooklyn's pitching staff (which for my two cents is the best in the league). Before, you knew they were good, but now they truly stand out as exceptional. You don't need the results to know that. In making this easier, we perhaps did lose some of the fun. But again, walking into a league where the ratings are so high with 10+ numbers all over the place while some guys are playing guys with 4's and 5's for various things is a huge handicap for new GM's. I would argue that some of us "veterans" had various blind spots as well.

Is this better? I don't know. I think overall yes, although there are disadvantages.
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Re: 2037: EVERYTHING'S RELATIVE, RIGHT?

Post by recte44 » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:28 pm

Everything Ted said. Coupled with the UMEBA there is going to be an influx of new guys. Let’s even the playing field as best as we can.

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Re: 2037: EVERYTHING'S RELATIVE, RIGHT?

Post by Bumstead » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:43 pm

Looking at Umeba...there's an influx of the same guys managing those teams and maybe 2 new guys...why not talk about it? Novel idea. Why not implement it at the start of a season, even if we aren't going to talk about it and discuss the pros and cons and have some input?

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Re: 2037: EVERYTHING'S RELATIVE, RIGHT?

Post by ae37jr » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:19 pm

I think I like this new system. Still not sure yet. The biggest takeaway I have is that colors are now more relevant....

Blue=All Star
Green=Starter
Yellow=Bench
Red=Send back to minors.

Obviously there are some exceptions and if you are looking at one individual skill, it doesn't define the player. But if I look across the board and a player has a lot of blue. They are an all star. A lot of red. They are a scrub. I couldn't really do that before. Literally my entire pitching staff had blue stuff before we switched. All 12 guys, the two on the DL and the 2-3 in the minors on my 40 man.
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Re: 2037: EVERYTHING'S RELATIVE, RIGHT?

Post by RonCo » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:27 pm

I think that once things settle a little, most of the league will like the relative ratings better than what we were using before. I'll probably not be one of them, but my sense is that a majority of OOTPers tend to like them. That said, the conversion in thought process is not insubstantial.
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Re: 2037: EVERYTHING'S RELATIVE, RIGHT?

Post by RonCo » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:29 pm

And I disagree with Ted about one thing in particular. It seemed obvious that Brett was going to give J. J. McQuade all the money no matter what his ratings were.
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Re: 2037: EVERYTHING'S RELATIVE, RIGHT?

Post by Ted » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:38 pm

RonCo wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:29 pm
And I disagree with Ted about one thing in particular. It seemed obvious that Brett was going to give J. J. McQuade all the money no matter what his ratings were.
Perhaps. I dunno. I thought he played well for you but that it was largely because you used him well. He was never a true "full time" guy for you. It seemed obvious to me that he would struggle to hit in a full time role. He just looked like the poster child to me of someone who the old ratings made look better than they were, because he had a bunch of green bars, but they were barely green.
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Re: 2037: EVERYTHING'S RELATIVE, RIGHT?

Post by RonCo » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:46 pm

The confusion about how to read why Jon Reed is good is always confusing to me. Honestly, I thought folks were joking when they said they couldn't see why he was successful (seriously, no offense intended to anyone there). His previous CONTROL was a 4 (now it's a 3). EYE is not massively high across the league, resulting in the fact that his BB rate wasn't horrible over a large sample size, so it's fairly clear that he's on the top of the "4" range (60-80 on the 200 scale, probably 75-80 in reality). His 6 MOV was about league average, and the fact that his HR/9 was OK (again over a nice sample size) says maybe he was even on the top of that (100-120 raw, so maybe 115-120). He clearly had massive stuff, and if you didn't believe that I have no idea why, given his eye-boggling repertoire (four elite pitches and a fifth that's merely major league capable).

Blah, blah blah. :)
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Re: 2037: EVERYTHING'S RELATIVE, RIGHT?

Post by RonCo » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:51 pm

Ted wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:38 pm
RonCo wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:29 pm
And I disagree with Ted about one thing in particular. It seemed obvious that Brett was going to give J. J. McQuade all the money no matter what his ratings were.
Perhaps. I dunno. I thought he played well for you but that it was largely because you used him well. He was never a true "full time" guy for you. It seemed obvious to me that he would struggle to hit in a full time role. He just looked like the poster child to me of someone who the old ratings made look better than they were, because he had a bunch of green bars, but they were barely green.
I agree. But I figured Brett saw that, too, and still gave him all the money. McQuade has never been on my radar as a serious full-time starter, which is why I let him walk to FA rather pay him the $11M (or whatever) he wanted to extend. Maybe I'm wrong and Brett mis-read the ratings. If so, figure most of the misread was defensive, actually. He's okay defensively, but his biggest value to me was that he was okay defensively at so many positions. As a shortstop his glove isn't so brilliant you'll love less bat vs RHP. But what do I know?
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Re: 2037: EVERYTHING'S RELATIVE, RIGHT?

Post by Ted » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:51 pm

RonCo wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:46 pm
The confusion about how to read why Jon Reed is good is always confusing to me. Honestly, I thought folks were joking when they said they couldn't see why he was successful (seriously, no offense intended to anyone there). His previous CONTROL was a 4 (now it's a 3). EYE is not massively high across the league, resulting in the fact that his BB rate wasn't horrible over a large sample size, so it's fairly clear that he's on the top of the "4" range (60-80 on the 200 scale, probably 75-80 in reality). His 6 MOV was about league average, and the fact that his HR/9 was OK (again over a nice sample size) says maybe he was even on the top of that (100-120 raw, so maybe 115-120). He clearly had massive stuff, and if you didn't believe that I have no idea why, given his eye-boggling repertoire (four elite pitches and a fifth that's merely major league capable).

Blah, blah blah. :)
I think a lot of it for me was that he bumped and the stats that bumped were his below avg ones and they just went to average and still below average so I didn't notice as much. Also, I kept confusing him with John Wood(s?) for a long time so there's that.

I would also argue Ron, that you rely more on stats as opposed to ratings than most, and probably have a better feel for what the old average talents were than most. A change to relative ratings probably does less for you because you already had it figured out for the most part.
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Re: 2037: EVERYTHING'S RELATIVE, RIGHT?

Post by RonCo » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:13 pm

That could be (that I rely on stats more than most). I suggest that in reality, the move to relative ratings will make use of stats even more important in the process. If, for example, the line of demarcation for above and below average is the line between a "5" and a "6" being able to understand when a guy is at the upper or lower range of both of those bands will become really useful because so many players are going to be in them. At some level, thinking as if you're playing stats-only OOTP will become a more valuable skill more often.
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Re: 2037: EVERYTHING'S RELATIVE, RIGHT?

Post by bschr682 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:55 pm

RonCo wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:51 pm
Ted wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:38 pm
RonCo wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:29 pm
And I disagree with Ted about one thing in particular. It seemed obvious that Brett was going to give J. J. McQuade all the money no matter what his ratings were.
Perhaps. I dunno. I thought he played well for you but that it was largely because you used him well. He was never a true "full time" guy for you. It seemed obvious to me that he would struggle to hit in a full time role. He just looked like the poster child to me of someone who the old ratings made look better than they were, because he had a bunch of green bars, but they were barely green.
I agree. But I figured Brett saw that, too, and still gave him all the money. McQuade has never been on my radar as a serious full-time starter, which is why I let him walk to FA rather pay him the $11M (or whatever) he wanted to extend. Maybe I'm wrong and Brett mis-read the ratings. If so, figure most of the misread was defensive, actually. He's okay defensively, but his biggest value to me was that he was okay defensively at so many positions. As a shortstop his glove isn't so brilliant you'll love less bat vs RHP. But what do I know?
Pretty much he was getting that money no matter what. If I remember right, he was the only FA bat that could play defense at all and I had a hole at SS. I had pegged him as a player of interest before the team even existed and did the expansion draft with the plan to overpay McQuade right away. I also had the money. Put those 3 things together and it made McQuade far more valuable to me than to anyone else. Rather than get into a protracted bidding war that stretched throughout free agency, I simply went big immediately and moved on to other things.

At least that's how I remember it but its been awhile so who knows.
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Re: 2037: EVERYTHING'S RELATIVE, RIGHT?

Post by RonCo » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:12 pm

Finally got around to doing pitcher sub-types. So I’ll show a couple more charts that should make one break from the idea that OOTP is particularly great at “centering” its relative ratings. To reiterate, I’m not in the know about what relative ratings actually do, but while one can argue that they set average at some arbitrary level (50, or 60, or 5, or 6, or whatever) and then grade things out on the average so that you get a nice normal curve, and while relative ratings do a better job of that than raw ratings, this data shows that’s not quite right.

Here are the distribution of overall ratings on the 20-80 scale by pitcher type.

2037-Rel-Rate-PIT-OVL.PNG

When you look at all pitchers together, you get a weird mesa-like plateau between 35-55 where ratings are pretty much evenly distributed, then a tail to the right that looks like a normal fall-off. Is this good? I don’t know, but if you were forced to pick a center-pole, I’d say it’s 45 before I’d say it’s 50…which is lower than most would think. But I’m not sure that matters. Let’s look at the breakouts by type.

Starting Pitchers have a ragged distribution, but if you wanted to just ignore the hump at 35 you could almost say that starters are centered at 50 or 55. Of course, that’s like a parent saying that if you can ignore the fact that junior missed questions 6 through 10 on today’s pop-quiz, he’d have passed. The relative rating algorithm hasn’t smoothed out starters, hence the ratings are not relative in the sense that some are talking about it.

Relievers show this even more dramatically in that the majority of them are parked int eh 40-45 range, so I’d say that at the end of the day, maybe the algorithm is shooting for 50 for all pitchers, but that there’s a difference in values of relievers and starters? Who can tell, right? But there’s the data. You make your own call.

COMPONENT RESULTS

Of course, to me overall ratings are an intellectual exercise more than anything else. I don’t think the game uses them for anything that we care about in the BBA—though I suppose it’s possible that they could influence contract demands. Again, I have no idea.

But component ratings (Stuff, Movement, Control) are a difference matter. Let’s take a look at the pitchers in the BBA and how they fall on the adjusted scales of relative ratings.

2037-Rel-Rate-PIT-Comp.PNG

These look better in that they are more properly normal in distribution for both starters and relievers. They aren’t centered in standard places, though, and that’s important to understand. In other words, a league average pitcher is not 5/5/5 or even 6/6/6.

Starters center on 7/6/7, with some hesitation on whether that 7 control is really a high 6. Relievers look to be more pure 7/6/6. There’s more spread with relievers, too, including 20 such pitchers with stuff in the 11 and 12 range.

Anyway, if you want to shorthand it and say that a league average pitcher is 7/6/6, I’d nod argue vehemently, but my opinion is that if you use that as your SP target, you’ll probably spend a lot of time wondering why your guys aren’t doing what they need to be doing. I think you’ll be happier seeing it as SP: 7/6/7, RP: 7/6/6.

So, there you are.

OVERALL THOUGHTS

At the end of the day, I think a lot of folks will be happier with these ratings after they settle a little—at least that’s my view of the experience elsewhere. I think a lot of guys find them easier to read at a glance. For me, their charm is in the use of the 20-80 scale (which we can obviously do without using relative ratings) reads like real baseball, so fits the feeling of the game better than stars. I recommended the use of relative ratings in addition to the 20/80 scale, however, because I know a lot of people like the feeling that they’re getting ratings centered at 50 “like real baselball,” too.

That said, as we’ve discussed here, there’s danger in haphazard application of that thinking. That assumes that relative ratings represent what real life baseball scouts mean when they use these scales, and the fact is that they don’t. The difference is subtle, but IMHO, real.
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Re: 2037: EVERYTHING'S RELATIVE, RIGHT?

Post by RonCo » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:17 pm

bschr682 wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:55 pm
Pretty much he was getting that money no matter what. If I remember right, he was the only FA bat that could play defense at all and I had a hole at SS. I had pegged him as a player of interest before the team even existed and did the expansion draft with the plan to overpay McQuade right away. I also had the money. Put those 3 things together and it made McQuade far more valuable to me than to anyone else. Rather than get into a protracted bidding war that stretched throughout free agency, I simply went big immediately and moved on to other things.

At least that's how I remember it but its been awhile so who knows.
It's related to the market dynamic that's fueling the whole "why Bryce Harper to the Padres makes sense" conversation. They have lots of cheap guys coming along, and so dropping a ton of cash on one guy they think they need is "good use" of the money. Of course, McQuade was never going to play to anything close to the cash, whereas Harper might...or might not (my guess is "not," at least for a lot of the contract).

Still, these are market dynamics in our league that, if FA markets are filled with enough good players, will serve to keep budgets spent and player salaries reasonably high.
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