We Need a Policy on AI and Participation Points

[Trebro]

It is unfair to people who take the time to think out and write tram news, features, etc. to lose out to people using AI to write so many articles they can convert PP to cash or improve players to max at will.

I would request that the Board implement a policy of some kind related to this. Either a PP cap or a reduction if using AI would be my suggestions.

If the Board feels this is impossible then the entire system needs scrapped. We simply cannot allow those using AI to dominate via PP adjustment.

Thank you for considering this request. I would ask for an answer as soon as possible so that all know what the playing field will be for PP this year.

[ae37jr]

I deleted my 3 game reviews. Didn't mean to piss anyone off. Every year I feel like Im a solid contributor to the league. Yet at the end of the year I have like 30 pp while others have 200-300 because they make a shit ton of meaningless polls that take 5 seconds to make, or make one or two word replies to posts that they probably don't even read.

I'll just stick to my 6 boring articles a year from now on and bank all the pp for the next GM.

[Lane]

i think there are ways that AI can be used in a way that is interesting, engaging and worthy of points being awarded for the effort put into it. so i would say that an outright ban is not the solution, and the wording in our guidelines is ok.

[Lane]

the league has a history of attempting to police team news, and it has not gone well. we also have at least one instance of a fight over quality of team news contributing to GMs leaving the league.

we have guidelines on how to write team news: http://montybrewster.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3

What constitutes a sufficient Team News report? In order to qualify for the points, your Team News writings must be original, owner-created content. Copying and pasting from your OOTP team page will not count. You must have at least two solid paragraphs of original, owner-created written content. One sentence is far less than a paragraph. Non PPT-worthy postings should be pinned in your Team News forum or posted elsewhere on the board. Also, please post each news item as a separate thread for easier tallying.

i see no problem with someone using AI as an assistance tool (in fact, myself and commish have used AI in different ways to produce content for the league) if it leads to original, engaging content.

there are myriad ways to earn participation points in this league, and myriad ways to write a team news.

above all, we need to remember to treat each other with courtesy, respect and dignity.

[jiminyhopkins]

I've only done AI writing twice, as a joke. I did use an AI picture of a plane crash as well.

However I'd never do it for my usual writing. For one, No AI can match my style. Two, It would never know all the lore, in-jokes, and background that only exists in my head. Three, Chat GPT servers would melt if they were fed Talons Team News articles!

Someone give AI a prompt about VODAK, I'd like to see what happens.

[jiminyhopkins]

i think there are ways that AI can be used in a way that is interesting, engaging and worthy of points being awarded for the effort put into it. so i would say that an outright ban is not the solution, and the wording in our guidelines is ok.

Disagree. AI is a cancer. I know it's inevitable and we can't do anything about it in a wider sense. But can we at least try and protect our little corner of creative heaven??

[Lane]

Someone give AI a prompt about VODAK, I'd like to see what happens.

you're right, it's garbage.

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[Jwalk100]

The Tropics use VODAK to fuel the tiki torches.

[Trebro]

i think there are ways that AI can be used in a way that is interesting, engaging and worthy of points being awarded for the effort put into it. so i would say that an outright ban is not the solution, and the wording in our guidelines is ok.

Disagree. AI is a cancer. I know it's inevitable and we can't do anything about it in a wider sense. But can we at least try and protect our little corner of creative heaven??

Co-signed. AI is ruining things for the creative friends I have who are still trying to make a living with their words or pictures. And it's coming for Administrative Assistants next. I'm shocked enough people pushed back to take it out of fast food. at least temporarily.

I really don't want it spreading here too and if it does, I'll have to rethink if I want to put the hours of effort into what I do here. I think it would be better if we had a more specific policy but that's clearly not going to happen right now.

But I do think this needs monitored and watched for to ensure it doesn't ruin the best part of the league, which is the lore. AI slop will destroy what's been built over the past 80+ seasons.

[jiminyhopkins]

Someone give AI a prompt about VODAK, I'd like to see what happens.

you're right, it's garbage.

I agree!

[RonCo]

Well...I don't use AI at present any any professional writing endeavor--with the exception of one project that was specifically about the concept of AI art using my own haiku as prompts. But I'm not particularly concerned that it's going to affect my readership. People either like what I write, or they don't. A bunch of AI things out there aren't going to impact that.

I also know of writers who are using AI to help them be more creative themselves. But that's a complex concept. We can argue this a billion times over.

Regardless, I still think the point of this league is to have fun.

For us, the problems with AI--especially used to create text in push-button fashion) are:

1) As a rule if you take it straight off the shelf, it's boring to read. That' not fun.
2) Operationally, it creates a lot of text fast, and hence can swamp the environment with so much stuff that we just shut down our reading all together. That's really not fun.
3) If a few people use it without putting in much effort, they create a crap-ton of points really fast. Which gives them an advantage over those who dont (while imacting #1 and #2).
4) It's exceedingly hard to police (as are all PPT-related issues).

Use of AI for imagery can be, I think, valuable for a world like ours simply because it can create visual engagement where none exists. I've used it on occasion, specifically looking for a particular vibe as I create it.

At the end of the day, when I was counting, I was mostly trying to focus on integrity. DId the person posting something (even if it was slight), try to do something good for the league, and did they do it in ways that sprang from their own brai in some way. I suggest that we do put a policy in place, and that the policy be made in such a way that drives us to good-faith efforts to create fun league content that help eachother generally enjoy the world we're creating.

As I posted on discord, here's a thing I wrote about PPT some time back: http://montybrewster.net/forums/viewtop ... 20&t=33308

[RT60]

The problem I see is that you will always have cheaters. So a prohibition won't stop some from unjustly enriching themselves. I doubt we are going to be analyzing each TN for AI. Perhaps we also should rethink how PP is calculated for TN. Have a minimum like now. But have TN's over the minimum count less so one can't spam their team forum with AI TNs. Yes, it would be a disincentive for law-abiding GMs and result in fewer TNs, but do we really need a GM to do 20 or more TNs in a season that nobody has time to fully appreciate? Look how many people read and comment on TNs now, and that is with a PP incentive to do so. You can still do a lot of TNs and enrich the community that way, but you just won't get the same amount of PP the more you do in the same season. Just thinking out loud and I know this won't be popular. I'll hang up and listen to the answer.

[aaronweiner]

I have actually BEEN AI since 2013, and nobody has seemed to notice.

In all seriousness, I remember a situation in which one of our former owners wrote a script to write team news and posted dozens of them in a day. That’s not acceptable-that’s spam. At the time I suggested a cap on points for team news. The cap wasn’t low (50-100 count for points per season if I recall).

Putting a points cap on team news would solve the problem, I think. I always had it in mind that if people couldn’t get absurd amounts of points from TN that they’d have to write features or previews or trade analysis or something and it would be overall better for the league.

[JimSlade]

So, PPT is the root of all evil!

Joking.

I'm opposed to AI for cranking out TNs, but I try to keep an open mind about the potential for people to use this technology to kickstart ideas. In my company's stated "people-first" culture, I'm seeing more investment being made in AI than in people. A part of me feels like I've got to make peace with the robots if I'm going to stay vital. But here, for the sake of a game? No thanks. From what I've seen, the robots have work to do to avoid their typically loopy, vague turns of phrase.

As someone who struggles with the notion of PPT for modding the game, putting a cap on PPT may be the only way to manage this threat. I would hope all of us have better things to do than police AI usage. It stinks for people who sincerely love to earn and spend PPT as they see fit.

[jiminyhopkins]

Putting a points cap on team news would solve the problem, I think. I always had it in mind that if people couldn’t get absurd amounts of points from TN that they’d have to write features or previews or trade analysis or something and it would be overall better for the league.

This is a good idea, AI or no. It would definitely incentivise all of the other ways of getting points. Podcasts =5. Trade Analysis = 8. Previews = 6. It can be done!

P.S. Not to mention the extra points for Media Guide articles! I agree, lets cap the Team News and encourage other ways of participating.

[trmmilwwi]

Good discussion points. I think the constitution is in good shape to address this issue already. It is clear that original content is the expectation. I fully trust the GB to decide what AI infractions cross the line from a tool that adds value to a tool that allows GMs to flaunt the rules. Usually it is pretty clear what the intent is.

[JimBob2232]

Agree we shouldn’t be using AI for TN because that feels like it’s cheating the system. But I also think it’s hard to figure out which ones are AI generated.

As for pictures - I’ve played around with AI trying to generate a new logo, etc…but it keeps getting the text wrong.

[JRamirez]

I have used AI in an extremely limited fashion in only two or three TN and when I did, I stated that up front and also put that material in quotes. The AI-generated text was not the main content of the TN. I have also had AI generate various photos and three or four songs about Des Moines happenings, but that for grins and fun only. No PPs desired or wanted for that.

[indiansfan]

I am so behind on this AI stuff that wouldn't even know how to create a team news with it