Too Many With Rule 5 Eligibility?

[crobillard]

If you have 39 guys on your 40 man today but you have 2 guys you want to put on the 40 man this sim you must waive someone to make room. If we sim 14 days but the waiver period is 8 days then the rest of the league can’t claim your 41st player thus giving you a back door route to protect 41 guys.

But those guys you waive are still rule5 eligible, so they are free of being claimed on waivers, they are not protected from Rule 5.

For example let’s say I decided to waive Jim Antolin. As of this file he is not in the draft pool so nobody has the opportunity to put him in their draft list because he is not showing unprotected. I decide I like a couple people in the minors better and to make room I must waive Antolin. He technically would be rule 5 draft eligible once I waive him on Jan 25th only. Once Jan 26 hits rule 5 is over and he will be on waivers until Feb 2. If we sim until Feb 8 he immediately clears waivers and nobody ever knows he was actually on waivers and you have the opportunity to use waivers as a back door to protect extra guys. Waivers has not worked all offseason nobody is ever in there because we blow past the waiver period with these long sims.

Is there a way to see if a player was demoted through waivers at some point in the offseason? I was thinking the complete transactions log for the league, but I don't see anything.

[RonCo]

I don't know of any easy way to see that. You can see who was put on waivers in the main league transactions, but not what happened next.

[handaspencer]

But those guys you waive are still rule5 eligible, so they are free of being claimed on waivers, they are not protected from Rule 5.

For example let’s say I decided to waive Jim Antolin. As of this file he is not in the draft pool so nobody has the opportunity to put him in their draft list because he is not showing unprotected. I decide I like a couple people in the minors better and to make room I must waive Antolin. He technically would be rule 5 draft eligible once I waive him on Jan 25th only. Once Jan 26 hits rule 5 is over and he will be on waivers until Feb 2. If we sim until Feb 8 he immediately clears waivers and nobody ever knows he was actually on waivers and you have the opportunity to use waivers as a back door to protect extra guys. Waivers has not worked all offseason nobody is ever in there because we blow past the waiver period with these long sims.

Is there a way to see if a player was demoted through waivers at some point in the offseason? I was thinking the complete transactions log for the league, but I don't see anything.

Yes, I just randomly selected a team and that was California. On Jan 1 he put 4 guys on waivers most likely a corresponding move to get ready for rule 5 but they have already cleared waivers. Nobody even had the opportunity to claim them because we went from Jan 1 to Jan 25. You can find this in their team transactions log.

[crobillard]

I don't know of any easy way to see that. You can see who was put on waivers in the main league transactions, but not what happened next.

Yeah, that's probably the best we can do, then just click the player to see where they are now. Looking through, there are definitely some players that would be claimed. I would consider a claim on Winston Abernathy myself if I ever saw him available, but I'm not going to act like this is the biggest deal in the world to me either.

[RonCo]

True, Kevin...if you pick through the whole transaction change, you can find them. But you can't just scan the log and know if a player was moved from waivers or not.

There is some clue in the language...a player "optioned" to AAA was not waived first. A player "assigned" was likely designated for assignment first. But there is no language expressly for "waived." Admitedly, this is a little bit of parsing...but unless you pick through every player's transaction cycle you don't know with 100% certainty their cycle.

[RonCo]

... but I'm not going to act like this is the biggest deal in the world to me either.

It's not always a big deal, but rule 5 can be huge for a team coming up the curve, and putting players on the 40 man is at the heart of what it means to manage the minor leagues...

Ultimately, as technical/esoteric as this conversation can sound, among the issues is that these kinds of things are also avoidable.

[crobillard]

... but I'm not going to act like this is the biggest deal in the world to me either.

It's not always a big deal, but rule 5 can be huge for a team coming up the curve, and putting players on the 40 man is at the heart of what it means to manage the minor leagues...

Ultimately, as technical/esoteric as this conversation can sound, among the issues is that these kinds of things are also avoidable.

Oh sorry I didn't mean to downplay the importance of Rule 5 as a whole. I just meant that it didn't matter as much to me that I didn't get to put in a claim for Abernathy. Other teams may have wanted to put claims in for many more players that were waived.

[recte44]

Best solution is to cancel the a Rule 5 this year.

[felipe]

Sounds good;

[RonCo]

Best solution is to cancel the a Rule 5 this year.

Options seem to be:

1) Kill it this year - hurts weaker teams a bit
2) Charge onward - starts clocks early around the league (* teams who have already exported may already have done this)
3) Run it outside the game - best quality, but adds _considerable_ admin effort at a time when that is hard to find, and slows pace

I'd probably vote to kill it, but that pains my heart.

[HoosierVic]

I think killing it this year is probably the best solution.

[handaspencer]

True, Kevin...if you pick through the whole transaction change, you can find them. But you can't just scan the log and know if a player was moved from waivers or not.

There is some clue in the language...a player "optioned" to AAA was not waived first. A player "assigned" was likely designated for assignment first. But there is no language expressly for "waived." Admitedly, this is a little bit of parsing...but unless you pick through every player's transaction cycle you don't know with 100% certainty their cycle.

Very true it’s hard to follow the whole cycle. But if someone was designated for assignment and placed on waivers Jan 1 and when you look in the league waiver wire and it’s empty today that means 31 teams never had the option to claim them and they just blew through waivers incognito. I was able to claim Susumu Nakanishi last offseason in a waiver wire pickup and he put up over 3 WAR for me. Moral of my complaint is we need to fix the waiver length to be greater than the sim length so waivers actually works and we can fix it this sim.

[handaspencer]

I would kill it this year because teams didn’t have the opportunity to plan ahead losing a year unexpectedly. But it needs put back into December next year so this don’t happen again.

[RonCo]

Moral of my complaint is we need to fix the waiver length to be greater than the sim length so waivers actually works and we can fix it this sim.

This thread was more about Rule 5, but, yes.

[RonCo]

Best solution is to cancel the a Rule 5 this year.

Is there a way to do this if teams have already exported draft lists?

- Manually adjust each?
- Macro kill?

[bschr682]

What about all the teams that just started clocks on guys that didn’t need to?

[ae37jr]

Were all of the unjustly tagged players international signings?

[recte44]

True, Kevin...if you pick through the whole transaction change, you can find them. But you can't just scan the log and know if a player was moved from waivers or not.

There is some clue in the language...a player "optioned" to AAA was not waived first. A player "assigned" was likely designated for assignment first. But there is no language expressly for "waived." Admitedly, this is a little bit of parsing...but unless you pick through every player's transaction cycle you don't know with 100% certainty their cycle.

Very true it’s hard to follow the whole cycle. But if someone was designated for assignment and placed on waivers Jan 1 and when you look in the league waiver wire and it’s empty today that means 31 teams never had the option to claim them and they just blew through waivers incognito. I was able to claim Susumu Nakanishi last offseason in a waiver wire pickup and he put up over 3 WAR for me. Moral of my complaint is we need to fix the waiver length to be greater than the sim length so waivers actually works and we can fix it this sim.

The waiver thing can be discussed to death, but at the end of the day it is simply my error. A simple reminder to me at the beginning of the offseason is the solution.

[handaspencer]

What about all the teams that just started clocks on guys that didn’t need to?

It really don’t start their clocks. When someone is placed on the 40 man all that really means is they begin 3 years known as the option years. In theory you can hold someone on your 40 man for 9 seasons after placing them on the 40 man. The first 3 years can be spent in the minors during the option years then the final 6 years on the active BBA roster. The clock don’t start until they are placed on the BBA active roster.

[RonCo]

Using options is a form of a clock.