Can good defense at one position help bad def at another?

[allenciox]

So this is something I have been wondering but I don't have access to the data to look at it: say you have a CF with great range... will that "make up" somewhat for having an LF or RF with poor range (i.e. the CF could get to balls that are hit between them, thus ameliorating their range deficiency). The same thing might be true for very high range SS helping poor range 2B or 3B.

Has anybody looked at this? I think the place to look would be in the game logs --- particularly since the grid position something is hit to is noted there. It could be that looking at the grid positions in between SS and 3B, or SS and 2B, or LF/CF, CF/RF, if a higher percentage of those are handled by the SS or CF for poor fielding alternatives than for good fielding alternatives than that would suggest this to be the case --- and I know that Ronco processes game logs and analyzes them for other purposes.

[RonCo]

That would be an interesting question. I can do some parsing of the results file in the middle zones and see what comes out. My gut instinct would be to say it wouldn't make much of a difference, but there's certainly a logic to the idea that is would.

I'm a little crammed right now, but if nothing else I'll post the results file after May is over and folks can look at it on your own.

[niles08]

Very good question!

[jleddy]

I read Jim's post and thought the answer would be unequivically yes. Am I missing something? Why would a player's plus-range not make-up for a neighboring position's lack of range, albeit a potentially small affect??

[RonCo]

I suppose it depends on how the game models the ranges of various roles. There's no question to me that better range is more better in players of the same position, but if the CF range doesn't overlap with the LF range, then the pairing doesn't matter.

[jleddy]

If there's an invisible wall that defensive players can't enter, this would be one of the most damning issues in OOTP...I just find that hard to believe.

Using my thirty-second fancy artwork, I HAVE to believe a CF would have the ability to cover the blue area depending on range and a LF would have the yellow area. If a LF has low range and a CF has high range, the CF could conceivable help make plays in the green area.

[allenciox]

Exactly what Ronco said... in real MLB baseball, it likely matters, the question is whether that is actually modelled by the game or not.

[RonCo]

Per the results file last year, here are the fielders of fly balls hit into that middle LF zone (78s):

Fielder	78S	78M	78D	78XD	All
LF	670	686	535	81	1972
CF	207	421	486	160	1274
None	351	219	262	1275	2107
All	1229	1330	1284	1519	5362

[RonCo]

This still does not, however, specifically say that the ranges overlap.

[RonCo]

If there's an invisible wall that defensive players can't enter, this would be one of the most damning issues in OOTP...I just find that hard to believe.

Using my thirty-second fancy artwork, I HAVE to believe a CF would have the ability to cover the blue area depending on range and a LF would have the yellow area. If a LF has low range and a CF has high range, the CF could conceivable help make plays in the green area.

This is true, but to answer the question with any certainty one would need to understand how the game selects which fielder (or fielders) get the opportunity to make a specific play in those mid-zones.

[jleddy]

This still does not, however, specifically say that the ranges overlap.

Sure it does. The fact that plays were made in all four zones by both LF and CF clearly proves that.

Yes, at some point there is an invisible line that a fielder can't cross because their range has to end at some point. But that's no different in a simulation than real baseball...a fielder can only go so far to make a play.

[RonCo]

With this data, I can say that no CF fielded any balls hit into "7" zones...so their range doesn't extend that far.

[RonCo]

This still does not, however, specifically say that the ranges overlap.

Sure it does. The fact that plays were made in all four zones by both LF and CF clearly proves that.

Yes, at some point there is an invisible line that a fielder can't cross because their range has to end at some point. But that's no different in a simulation than real baseball...a fielder can only go so far to make a play.

Feel free to interpret it that way, and I know what you're trying to say, but I'm steeped enough in OOTP to be reluctant to make certain assumptions. For example, if ranges overlap, that would mean (assuming you had great ranges in LF and CF) two fielders would have opportunities to get to certain balls. I do not know if the game does that. My pure guess is that the game decides that the ball is playable by one fielder, and then determines if that play gets made. That's a little different from the statement that there's a line that players can't cross.

To use this data to make a definitive statement on the question will take a bit more math that I have time for right now--but basically, you'd want to compare teams that made more plays than normal in rangy CF zones with those teams that made worse/better plays in the rangy LF and RF zones (say, down the line).

[shoeless.db]

Great question and interesting discourse.

[jleddy]

My pure guess is that the game decides that the ball is playable by one fielder, and then determines if that play gets made. That's a little different from the statement that there's a line that players can't cross.

Ahhhh, gotcha. So basically the engine choses one fielder based on where the ball is hit and whether that player gets to it or doesn't. It doesn't factor the outcome between two potential fielders.

[RonCo]

My point is that I don't know.

But I can see a couple of possible algorithms that would create the data I see in the game logs.

[HoosierVic]

See, this is the difference between guys like Ron and guys like me. Ron’s seeing a couple of possible algorithms, and I’m looking up algorithms in the dictionary ...

[shoeless.db]

Who the hell does Al Gorythm even play for?

[ae37jr]

Al Gore Rythym?