Hidden Players

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Hidden Players

Post by ae37jr » Wed May 15, 2019 1:39 pm

Just found something odd that has been happening on my team. If you look at my S-A team, there are 35 players listed on the home screen. Yet if you go to the roster link it only has 30 listed. It's the same in game. The 5 pitchers with zero IP are no where to be found on the team roster/depth charts, yet when I look at "entire organization" they show up as players in S-A.

I'm able to fix this by moving them to another level and moving them back. Just thought I'd point this out as others may have the same thing going on. All and all there were about 15 hidden players I found. Two of them I consider fringe prospects who now missed a whole season.
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Re: Hidden Players

Post by Bumstead » Wed May 15, 2019 1:46 pm

Weird, cause I was messing with my rosters last night and Tulsa is 9-122 or something of that nature, but in-game their roster is full....According to the reports there are only 23...which includes only 5 pitchers...I will have to take another look. I just found it odd that they could be 9-122 with a full roster or any roster, but I'm not going to spend a lot of time on something that OOTP does with minor league results (which I care nothing about). I guess the season is over so it's irrelevant. Funny, there are 2 months where the team only won 1 game...this is the kind of stupid crap that's not even possible to occur except in OOTP....

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Re: Hidden Players

Post by bschr682 » Wed May 15, 2019 1:47 pm

The hidden players thing has happened before. Kinda lame they still haven’t fixed that bug
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Re: Hidden Players

Post by Bumstead » Wed May 15, 2019 1:55 pm

The other entertaining thing is that 2 pitchers combined for 109 starts...I guarantee it isn't set up as a 2 man rotation...minor league roster limits, OOTP development, and online leagues don't play well together...

Was it Lasorda that said: Every team wins 54 and loses 54, it's the other 54 games that determine your season.

Very true words and results like 9-122 make OOTP seem silly.

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Re: Hidden Players

Post by ae37jr » Wed May 15, 2019 2:00 pm

Bumstead wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:55 pm
Very true words and results like 9-122 make OOTP seem silly.
You only have 3 pitchers on your roster and have had 4 position players pitch at least 96 innings a piece. Seems about right.
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Re: Hidden Players

Post by Bumstead » Wed May 15, 2019 2:11 pm

ae37jr wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:00 pm
Bumstead wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:55 pm
Very true words and results like 9-122 make OOTP seem silly.
You only have 3 pitchers on your roster and have had 4 position players pitch at least 96 innings a piece. Seems about right.
It's not right. In-game I have 30 guys on the roster...regardless, it's an a-ball team. The results are silly and no SP should start 58 games. It's not set up that way. Only in OOTP is the logic of baseball ignored. Like I said, I don't care about the record as I'm used to silly results. I don't move players up just because of roster limits. I move them up because they are ready. Minor league roster limits and how OOTP on-line GM's build teams through the minors don't work together at all. I don't even know what the advantage to roster limits in the minors even is for an online league....it's not like OOTP GM's manage their organizations the same way as MLB GM's...Usually OOTP GM's have a whole bunch of prospects at the same level cause they accumulate all at once and then they have a bunch of shit otherwise. Boise has a ton of shit on their minor league rosters and their International Complex is comical. All of those "prospects" have a 2 potential for the most part for every category. What is the point of that? Heck, half of the Tulsa roster is made up of guys with 2 potentials...I have never seen such a terrible organization. I imagine it's just Boise, but it's a shame that it's been allowed to get this bad in what 4 seasons....amazing. 9-122 is still not realistic by any stretch. Dumb luck is better than 9-122...I guess if we ignore reality and just go with 1's and 0's then non-realistic results are possible in a video game.

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Re: Hidden Players

Post by RonCo » Wed May 15, 2019 2:20 pm

Bumstead wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:46 pm
Weird, cause I was messing with my rosters last night and Tulsa is 9-122 or something of that nature, but in-game their roster is full....According to the reports there are only 23...which includes only 5 pitchers...I will have to take another look. I just found it odd that they could be 9-122 with a full roster or any roster, but I'm not going to spend a lot of time on something that OOTP does with minor league results (which I care nothing about). I guess the season is over so it's irrelevant. Funny, there are 2 months where the team only won 1 game...this is the kind of stupid crap that's not even possible to occur except in OOTP....
Yes, when you give a team only a couple pitchers, OOTP will do two things (pretty much like a real manager would). First, it will pitch the heck out of those couple pitchers, then it will pitch the hell out of its position players. The results are probably predictable in both OOTP and real baseball.

It would probably be good to worry at least just a little time worrying about your minor league results, but that's just me.

Bottom line: your real pitchers are now rag arms and Tulsa's team suffered through several hundred innings of position players pitching. Nine wins sounds pretty good! :)

Here's Tulsa's numbers
Boise_pitching.PNG
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Re: Hidden Players

Post by RonCo » Wed May 15, 2019 2:25 pm

Bumstead wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:11 pm
Dumb luck is better than 9-122...I guess if we ignore reality and just go with 1's and 0's then non-realistic results are possible in a video game.
If a real team pitched guys who are about as good as high school freshmen in a Rookie Ball season, any win you make would probably need a celebration.

OOTP does weird things, but I struggle with blaming its weirdness for these particular results.


-----


On the main point of the thread, missing players...yes, it still happens...and in some ways those missing players are almost certainly partially at fault with the big sizes of out draft classes.
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Re: Hidden Players

Post by Bumstead » Wed May 15, 2019 2:30 pm

RonCo wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:20 pm
Bumstead wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:46 pm
Weird, cause I was messing with my rosters last night and Tulsa is 9-122 or something of that nature, but in-game their roster is full....According to the reports there are only 23...which includes only 5 pitchers...I will have to take another look. I just found it odd that they could be 9-122 with a full roster or any roster, but I'm not going to spend a lot of time on something that OOTP does with minor league results (which I care nothing about). I guess the season is over so it's irrelevant. Funny, there are 2 months where the team only won 1 game...this is the kind of stupid crap that's not even possible to occur except in OOTP....
Yes, when you give a team only a couple pitchers, OOTP will do two things (pretty much like a real manager would). First, it will pitch the heck out of those couple pitchers, then it will pitch the hell out of its position players. The results are probably predictable in both OOTP and real baseball.

It would probably be good to worry at least just a little time worrying about your minor league results, but that's just me.

Bottom line: your real pitchers are now rag arms and Tulsa's team suffered through several hundred innings of position players pitching. Nine wins sounds pretty good! :)

Here's Tulsa's numbers

Boise_pitching.PNG
The main struggle I see in these responses is that there are 30 men on the roster and I don't have a 2 man rotation set up...regardless, OOTP can have its 1's and 0's make Tulsa go 0-131 and today will be the only day I ever say anything about it, because I don't care. That's why Joe Unknown is a workable player in on-line leagues. But, if we can't see past our own noses to be able to realize that OOTP GM's in on-line leagues develop players differently than MLB GM's, which makes minor league roster limits silly, then I will just chuckle at the logic and move on.

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Re: Hidden Players

Post by ae37jr » Wed May 15, 2019 2:34 pm

RonCo wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:25 pm
On the main point of the thread, missing players...yes, it still happens...and in some ways those missing players are almost certainly partially at fault with the big sizes of out draft classes.
In trying to find a link between them. I think I may have come up with something. Most of the players were fringe players that I may have dfa'd at some point in the season. The two somewhat prospects(Willard and Thompson) came over in the same trade earlier this season. I know for a fact I requested they stay in DFA in trade instructions.

So I think one of three things happened....

-I missed an export
-I mistakenly left them in DFA too long
-Recte simmed an extra day somewhere and they got left in DFA too long.


If BBA players get left in DFA too long, then they get released. But since all were on minor league contracts, maybe they just dissapear like that. That is my theory anyway.
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Re: Hidden Players

Post by ae37jr » Wed May 15, 2019 2:45 pm

Bumstead wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:30 pm

The main struggle I see in these responses is that there are 30 men on the roster and I don't have a 2 man rotation set up...regardless, OOTP can have its 1's and 0's make Tulsa go 0-131 and today will be the only day I ever say anything about it, because I don't care. That's why Joe Unknown is a workable player in on-line leagues. But, if we can't see past our own noses to be able to realize that OOTP GM's in on-line leagues develop players differently than MLB GM's, which makes minor league roster limits silly, then I will just chuckle at the logic and move on.
Maybe something is wrong with your file? I see 27 players and only three of them are pitchers. You have a 5 man rotation set up but only two starters on it. The other 3 are incomplete.

You can set the AI to sign minor league free agents and adjust lineups if you don't have the time. I do that myself when life becomes to hectic. Heck I've auto'ed my BBA team most of this season. Abusing a 2nd round draft pick like Lopez will in fact mess up your rebuild.
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Re: Hidden Players

Post by RonCo » Wed May 15, 2019 2:46 pm

There are a couple things that happen that I'll generallized into sometimes players get released, but don't get released.It happens around the IC and DFA and probably some other stuff.

To see part of what I mean regarding raft classes, go to our college teams and look at the main roster--you'll find 35 or so players, then go to "Players" and select "all in organization," and you'll find about 110-140 players. Some of those "hidden" guys are well potentialed, but never play. My own Frank Cameron (SA pitcher) was one of those. You'll see he came from college, but never played a game despite being created early enough that he should have.

When I ported the game into v20, all these "hidden players" were put onto college reserved rosters, and were at least then easy to see.

This learning was a part of the whole study we took to see if the class sizes were being caused by expansion or the UMEBA...which it now seems pretty clear is not the case. There are some issues in our HS feeders that build on the problem of draft sizes, but this is likely part of it, too.
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Re: Hidden Players

Post by RonCo » Wed May 15, 2019 2:47 pm

ae37jr wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:45 pm
Maybe something is wrong with your file? I see 27 players and only three of them are pitchers. You have a 5 man rotation set up but only two starters on it. The other 3 are incomplete.

This is what I see, too.
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Re: Hidden Players

Post by Bumstead » Wed May 15, 2019 2:53 pm

I don't have any interest in spending the little time I have available on signing future-less minor league players because of the insistence on the use of minor league roster limits and no ghost players. I'm not going to waste my time on that, nor do I want OOTP flooding my minor leagues with more useless players. I have about 100+ useless players as it is. The need to "over-complicate" a video game is lost on me. The logic used for minor league roster limits in an online league is lost on everyone. OOTP making its own decision to burn up pitchers in a 5-man rotation makes no sense to me. But then, I don't think in 1's and 0's; I'm just playing a video game.

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Re: Hidden Players

Post by RonCo » Wed May 15, 2019 3:01 pm

You, of course, find what's fun, fun. If you don't enjoy managing minor leagues, no one will try to say you should change how you feel ... or if they do, that's just wrong.

But I will say that the OOTP development engine is set up, and the BBA environment, too, with an eye toward GMs managing their organizations along similar lines as a real GM would.

As I said, it's fine if you don't like it, but, respectfully, I personally enjoy the heck out of it and I know several other people who also are in that camp. So the use of minor league age expectations, among many other things, are not lost on everyone.
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Re: Hidden Players

Post by RonCo » Wed May 15, 2019 3:03 pm

i see 30 players in Hot Springs, with full positions and pitching roles.

But I see only 23 in Tulsa, and 3 pitchers.
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Re: Hidden Players

Post by bschr682 » Wed May 15, 2019 3:12 pm

Yes! A good rant. Reading material for me at work...
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Re: Hidden Players

Post by Ted » Wed May 15, 2019 3:16 pm

ae37jr wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:39 pm
Just found something odd that has been happening on my team. If you look at my S-A team, there are 35 players listed on the home screen. Yet if you go to the roster link it only has 30 listed. It's the same in game. The 5 pitchers with zero IP are no where to be found on the team roster/depth charts, yet when I look at "entire organization" they show up as players in S-A.

I'm able to fix this by moving them to another level and moving them back. Just thought I'd point this out as others may have the same thing going on. All and all there were about 15 hidden players I found. Two of them I consider fringe prospects who now missed a whole season.
I'm a bit confused. What does this mean, in game. I see the discrepancy in the html pages. But how are the actually hiding in the game. Do you see them when you look at the entire organization's player list? That's where they were hiding before. Mine looks good, but I found a couple a few years back when this was noticed another time.
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Re: Hidden Players

Post by Bumstead » Wed May 15, 2019 3:21 pm

RonCo wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 3:01 pm
But I will say that the OOTP development engine is set up, and the BBA environment, too, with an eye toward GMs managing their organizations along similar lines as a real GM would.
The part of that statement that doesn't hold much water is that OOTP online GM's don't manage their minors like a real GM would....Online GM's sell off their entire team all in one season and accumulate a bulk of prospects all at the same level...I mean, we aren't close to managing our organizations like a real GM...we are playing a video game and complicating it because we have some idealistic idea that we are managing our organizations like a real GM would...

I'll move on. It's the same conversation and the same response in every league that ignores the reality of how online GM's actually manage their organizations. I'll go back to Boise where nobody ever managed the organization and continue repairing it my way (very unlike a real GM).

Edit: probably more like a real GM, since I can't make any trades. :( :cool:
Last edited by Bumstead on Wed May 15, 2019 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hidden Players

Post by ae37jr » Wed May 15, 2019 3:23 pm

Ted wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 3:16 pm
ae37jr wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:39 pm
Just found something odd that has been happening on my team. If you look at my S-A team, there are 35 players listed on the home screen. Yet if you go to the roster link it only has 30 listed. It's the same in game. The 5 pitchers with zero IP are no where to be found on the team roster/depth charts, yet when I look at "entire organization" they show up as players in S-A.

I'm able to fix this by moving them to another level and moving them back. Just thought I'd point this out as others may have the same thing going on. All and all there were about 15 hidden players I found. Two of them I consider fringe prospects who now missed a whole season.
I'm a bit confused. What does this mean, in game. I see the discrepancy in the html pages. But how are the actually hiding in the game. Do you see them when you look at the entire organization's player list? That's where they were hiding before. Mine looks good, but I found a couple a few years back when this was noticed another time.
When I'm on my S-A page in game(where I make depth chart changes). It says I have only 30 players and those 5 are nowhere to be found. I can't add them to depth chart because they are listed nowhere. When I look at Brooklyn/entire organization they are listed there and says they are in S-A.
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