What is used for salary cap overage?

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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by agrudez » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:01 pm

Ted wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:54 pm
This statement is akin to saying "Assume people trying to mug you are not doing so." Okay, that's a bit off. But respond as though they are not trying to mug you.

It's completely wrong. It encourages mugging.
Ted directly responded to Ron, but I want to make it clear that I am not continuing that thread and my next sentence is not directed at Ron.

There is only one type of person in the world that would have incentive to try to convince you that getting mugged isn't so bad (or that you weren't mugged at all, when you really were). A person that hopes to mug you again.
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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by RonCo » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:04 pm

"Assume good faith" does not imply passive response. Also, an offer made in "good faith" is not always one you will consider fair.

Something as simple as, "seriously, this isn't even in the ballpark, Ron," seems a perfectly good response. Though if the wording of an offer crosses a line of personal offense, that's an actual treatment issue, which perhaps would benefit from a conversation...which would be a great use for Slack, BTW. Actually, either situation could possibly be improved by taking it to Slack.

"Assume good faith" in that sense says that you're willing to assume the other guy is making an error in evaluation rather than merely saying "hey, I want to totally screw Ted, so what's the best thing I can do to really piss him off."

Blah,blah, blah.
Ted wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:54 pm
RonCo wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:03 pm
Perhaps "assume" is off a bit. But one can still respond as if they've been so made.
Disagree with both statements. Assuming offers are coming in are in good faith when they are not is how you get screwed. It's not "a bit" off. it's flat out wrong. I'd love to operate in an environment where you can do that. This is not one. If you need proof, I can start posting PM's.

Responding as though these offers are fair does nothing to address the issue. It encourages bad behavior.

This statement is akin to saying "Assume people trying to mug you are not doing so." Okay, that's a bit off. But respond as though they are not trying to mug you.

It's completely wrong. It encourages mugging. I don't know why this is such a hard thing for people to wrap their minds around.
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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by niles08 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:05 pm

I think this thread can probably be locked if Recte so wishes as my question was answered relatively quickly.

I do just want to say that it does go back to evaluating your prospects and how each person evaluates players. Maybe the player is low on my value pole but higher on somebody else's...or high on my value but others don't see as much value in that.

If I offer a deal to somebody for a player that they adore thinking its a fair deal, it doesn't mean that I am trying to screw somebody over and they should basically tell me to fuck off. It means maybe you value them higher than I do and my evaluation of them is wrong.

This entire basis really goes back to how each of us value players completely differently from the other. I don't think any of us could truly say that 2 of us value all of our players exactly the same.

This also goes back to other trades that have been made in the past by other teams(Not by me) that maybe seem unfair at the moment to 2 or 3 people because of how those players are valued. Looking forward it more than likely winded up to be a fair trade or even the team you thought was screwed, came out ahead. Case in point was truly the Wulms trade with YS9 & Des Moines that Ed still takes heck for even though he came out ahead in that deal and would have been more ahead had the deal not been reworked.

Also on a side note, I have several PM's that have told me Hale is being over valued and that the trade was truly not a bad trade for Des Moines. Maybe it's people trying to make me feel better but either way. It all comes down to how each of us value players.
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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by Bumstead » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:13 pm

niles08 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:05 pm


If I offer a deal to somebody for a player that they adore thinking its a fair deal, it doesn't mean that I am trying to screw somebody over and they should basically tell me to fuck off. It means maybe you value them higher than I do and my evaluation of them is wrong.

This entire basis really goes back to how each of us value players completely differently from the other. I don't think any of us could truly say that 2 of us value all of our players exactly the same.
Or, it means that you are targeting the player knowing how valuable he is and if you get him with your low ball offer that's great and if you don't then it must be an evaluation difference...the coin is 2 sided and patterns happen for a reason. I'm not accusing you directly of anything, I can only assume these are both hypothetical, but there are GM's that are intentional in their dealings of this nature. Patterns are easy to follow eventually.

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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by RonCo » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:24 pm

I can only speak for this league, and this league is the only one that matters to me in this conversation. But if GM A values an 80 potential 17 year old differently than GM B, that does not mean either are wrong, as a hypothetical. It doesn't mean an offer GM A has made is in poor sportsmanship just because GM B thinks it's insane.

If these two have different values, then a series of trade offers between each is always going to result in a pattern of offenses.
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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by agrudez » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:25 pm

You're a really fantastic debater, Ron. I mean that sincerely. You should get into politics.
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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by niles08 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:28 pm

Bumstead wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:13 pm
niles08 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:05 pm


If I offer a deal to somebody for a player that they adore thinking its a fair deal, it doesn't mean that I am trying to screw somebody over and they should basically tell me to fuck off. It means maybe you value them higher than I do and my evaluation of them is wrong.

This entire basis really goes back to how each of us value players completely differently from the other. I don't think any of us could truly say that 2 of us value all of our players exactly the same.
Or, it means that you are targeting the player knowing how valuable he is and if you get him with your low ball offer that's great and if you don't then it must be an evaluation difference...the coin is 2 sided and patterns happen for a reason. I'm not accusing you directly of anything, I can only assume these are both hypothetical, but there are GM's that are intentional in their dealings of this nature. Patterns are easy to follow eventually.
How is one supposed to know how much you value a player without first making an offer?

For those who have dealt with me in a trade(which I think is damn near everyone since I have been here a while), my trade discussion usually begins with asking if a player is available(if not publicly stated yet)...I then say...Hey I am interested in him, do you want to take a look at my roster and see what catches your eye? I am very rarely making the first offer usually because I don't know what the other person see's as value so I don't want to offer something I think is valuable if it's not to them and so forth.

The person typically comes back with 3 or 4 people they like, or sometimes even an offer, and then from there some negotiating goes on. That is my typical trade with most here...

This is the exact same routine that was done with Des Moines in our trade. He came back with 3 people he liked, and at one point we had discussed a different player coming from Des Moines for a different package of Hawk players but settled on this. I actually tried to negotiate down with Ed(because as I have said, I valued Clark a bit higher than others), and wanted to keep him and send someone else instead but he insisted on Clark.
Last edited by niles08 on Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by RonCo » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:29 pm

Thanks!
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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by Ted » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:32 pm

RonCo wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:24 pm
I can only speak for this league, and this league is the only one that matters to me in this conversation. But if GM A values an 80 potential 17 year old differently than GM B, that does not mean either are wrong, as a hypothetical. If doesn't mean an offer GM A has made is in poor sportsmanship just because GM B thinks it's insane.

If these two have different values, then a series of trade offers between each is always going to result in a pattern of offenses.
Ron, I get what you're saying. But you're arguing that the typical case must apply to all cases. There are valuations that are nuts. If someone offers you two 20 grade non prospects for a 21 year old fully developed Steve Nebraska, that is bullshit. There is no valuation of players that makes any sense that explains that.

Now, if someone offers you a 35 and a 40 who have just started their careers for an 21 year old 70 who is almost developed and will play next year, I suppose there is a way that could work, and player valuation and franchise direction might make a difference. But even in this case, that's not really very likely.

And I get offers like that all the time. I think my track record shows that I know what I'm doing. I also don''t think the other GMs in this league are so stupid that they think there are many scenarios where that is a good deal.

It's not the player valuable CAN'T explain some of these offers. But it can't explain a lot of them.
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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by RonCo » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:41 pm

Ted wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:32 pm
RonCo wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:24 pm
I can only speak for this league, and this league is the only one that matters to me in this conversation. But if GM A values an 80 potential 17 year old differently than GM B, that does not mean either are wrong, as a hypothetical. If doesn't mean an offer GM A has made is in poor sportsmanship just because GM B thinks it's insane.

If these two have different values, then a series of trade offers between each is always going to result in a pattern of offenses.
Ron, I get what you're saying. But you're arguing that the typical case must apply to all cases. There are valuations that are nuts. If someone offers you two 20 grade non prospects for a 21 year old fully developed Steve Nebraska, that is bullshit. There is no valuation of players that makes any sense that explains that.
As I said earlier...if you get that kind of offer, the best first approach to me seems to be to take it to Slack and have a conversation.

It's certainly possible that someone is trying to flat-out screw you, but my experience with the GMs around here is that they are not of that personality.
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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by RonCo » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:44 pm

Ted wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:32 pm
Now, if someone offers you a 35 and a 40 who have just started their careers for an 21 year old 70 who is almost developed and will play next year, I suppose there is a way that could work, and player valuation and franchise direction might make a difference. But even in this case, that's not really very likely.

And I get offers like that all the time.
For my evaluation, that offer wouldn't work unless that 70 was 17 or 18 and still had development risk. But I wouldn't call that offer someone trying to mug me...especially if that 35 and 40 fit a direct need. In fact, if that 35 and 40 fit a direct need, I'd think "Hey, at least the guy was trying to help me" as I replied "probably not."
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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by RonCo » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:48 pm

As an aside, this is one reason I hate overall ratings (be they stars or 20/80). I think the game does a horrible job making these assessments, and that clouds GMs feelings about player value. There are probably 50s who I would prefer to have than some 70s...but I'm saying that without doing any work to back that up.
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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by niles08 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:51 pm

RonCo wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:48 pm
As an aside, this is one reason I hate overall ratings (be they stars or 20/80). I think the game does a horrible job making these assessments, and that clouds GMs feelings about player value. There are probably 50s who I would prefer to have than some 70s...but I'm saying that without doing any work to back that up.
I agree completely. Because of that I would be completely in favor of overall ratings being hidden and only potentials being shown. Or better yet on overall ratings & potentials being hidden completely except on the actual ratings for batting/pitching. There are several 30 overall players I would rather have than a 45 or 50.
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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by RonCo » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:52 pm

I would also say that I've traded 4-5* 17 year olds who are under-developed for what several here might consider pennies on the dollar in my past. But I know those guys have only 20-25% chance of being worth anything, so in some situations I have no real problem giving them up for a "45" who can help me now. The equation to me at that point is:

1-2 seasons of an okay player today vs. 20% chance of a star later
There are many times where it's greatly in my favor to take the short position. So if I offer you that deal, I'm not trying to screw you.
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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by bcslouck » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:54 pm

I'm in a POT only league and it's pretty sweet. I have no problem with POT only because scouts do rate guys. Then you use the numbers to determine where they are in development.

Regardless, I'd be fine with overall being removed as well. This is the only league I've ever done online that has them. Though I still wouldn't of liked that trade. :D
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