What is used for salary cap overage?

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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by RonCo » Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:36 pm

agrudez wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:24 pm
Ted wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:19 pm
When this came up in the past, I've argued we should use the higher number, and count the full 500k as cap hits.
That's how we used to do it. I just opened each team's salary page individually on the HTML Reports to check. Granted it takes upwards of 5 minutes to do it that way so I understand the fervent desire for a reprieve. ;)
Sometimes it's just better to let the game do it. That said, I think I'm right here when I say that the MLB calculates payroll the same way.
RonCo wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:20 pm
I believe players who are on major league contracts (rather than min-sal pre-arb contracts) remain counted toward the cap. I suppose I could be wrong, though...
agrudez wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:24 pm
I hope that's right - big oversight if not, imo.
Once I'm sure I've exported for the final time, I'll demote one of my major leaguers and check. I'm 99.999% sure it's that way, but I don't recall actually doing this to confirm it.
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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by Ted » Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:39 pm

agrudez wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:24 pm
Ted wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:19 pm
When this came up in the past, I've argued we should use the higher number, and count the full 500k as cap hits.
That's how we used to do it. I just opened each team's salary page individually on the HTML Reports to check. Granted it takes upwards of 5 minutes to do it that way so I understand the fervent desire for a reprieve. ;)
RonCo wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:20 pm
I believe players who are on major league contracts (rather than min-sal pre-arb contracts) remain counted toward the cap. I suppose I could be wrong, though...
I hope that's right - big oversight if not, imo.
It's just min sal, pre-arb guys. I've done the math. It's one reason I don't care too much about the difference, although Kyle's way is more technically correct. In my case (and probably most people's) those min sal guys are AAA/AAAA types who never really matter much. If we changed the rules right now, I'd release six guys and never blink. Instead, I have 9th and 10th starters and 10th and 11th bullpen arms. I suppose I could get hurt enough for them to matter. But then you could also ask why we don't have insurance for players who miss the entire season and gain cap exceptions when a guy can't play. To me it's nonimpactful to ignore those 500k min sal, pre arb guys when they are in the minors. Technically I'm losing cap room by holding on to them because I'm still paying a portion of their salary.
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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by recte44 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:21 am

I'll post it again here, boys:
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The BBA Forums are the gathering place where our members enjoy the experience of running a baseball franchise within a community of OOTP fans. Our GMs are competitive but also helpful. They are friendly but not without faults. We don’t always have the same opinion or viewpoint. Debates and disagreements are a part of life, and the Brewster Baseball Association is not different. However, members are expected to be courteous and respectful of others, and always treat others with the proper dignity no matter what disagreements may be involved.

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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by Bumstead » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:28 am

Follow my lead fellas and all will be hunky dory...

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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by Ted » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:35 am

recte44 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:21 am
I'll post it again here, boys:
Off Topic
The BBA Forums are the gathering place where our members enjoy the experience of running a baseball franchise within a community of OOTP fans. Our GMs are competitive but also helpful. They are friendly but not without faults. We don’t always have the same opinion or viewpoint. Debates and disagreements are a part of life, and the Brewster Baseball Association is not different. However, members are expected to be courteous and respectful of others, and always treat others with the proper dignity no matter what disagreements may be involved.
So here's the issue I think Kyle has, and I do to a lesser degree. We roll out this part of the constitution when people get heated over a disagreement or call someone a name, but we ignore it when GM's take advantage of other GMs through trades. What's more offensive in reality? What's less respectful? I've patched thing up with Niles, and I don't know enough to claim he was trying to hurt Ed. But there are many deals that are lopsided and look really bad. Some of those HAVE to be deliberate. So that's not a lack of respect or courtesy? Just railroading another GM? Demonstrating through your actions that you have no respect for them at all?

Treat each other however horribly and unethically you want, as long as no one calls anyone a dirty name or publicly says anything controversial. - The American Way.
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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by Bumstead » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:40 am

You are just talking about the actual trades that occur. What about the insulting offers that one has to read and respond to? It's an epidemic in OOTP but this league certainly has it's strong contributors. There's a reason that Boise doesn't have a trade block and it's not because I wouldn't like to make trades or that I don't have players that I would trade.

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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by Ted » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:50 am

Bumstead wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:40 am
You are just talking about the actual trades that occur. What about the insulting offers that one has to read and respond to? It's an epidemic in OOTP but this league certainly has it's strong contributors. There's a reason that Boise doesn't have a trade block and it's not because I wouldn't like to make trades or that I don't have players that I would trade.
This. Very much this. Now, I still think that most of those offers simply appear insulting due to differences in valuation. But not all of them are. They can't be. Some are just too ridiculous. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of times I've been offered someone's used parts they've blocked and waived for half a season without takers for my young future all star prospect. That's a joke. That's insulting. It's certainly not respectably or courteous.

I would love to see any offers Jeff has gotten for French. I bet they're hilarious.
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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by recte44 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:21 pm

That's the great thing about a human GM league- you as the GM get to decide whether or not each individual deal works in the grand scheme of YOUR plan.

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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by Bumstead » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:29 pm

recte44 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:21 pm
That's the great thing about a human GM league- you as the GM get to decide whether or not each individual deal works in the grand scheme of YOUR plan.
This is one way of looking at it. There's also the reality that certain teams/GM's only make lopsided deals or no deals at all. I'm not going to come right out and say which GM's are like that, but I know who they are for the most part in this league and my other leagues. I try not to be surprised when it happens but it is frustrating to "compete" against. If I walked around wearing blinders pretending certain teams didn't operate in this fashion, then I would feel really bad about my ability to read what's happening in the league and my ability to compete within the framework that exists. Not saying I won't trade with them, but it will be a really painful process for them to have to work through with me.

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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by Ted » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:31 pm

recte44 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:21 pm
That's the great thing about a human GM league- you as the GM get to decide whether or not each individual deal works in the grand scheme of YOUR plan.
This is a complete dismissal of the discussion of at hand. There is nothing "great" about people abusing other humans. There is no way in which someone offering me two 30 rated players from a nearly developed top prospect can work out well. I suppose it could if your plan is to be terrible and never win. OR if your plan is to enjoy being treated like shit by other people. But carry on. I can see I'm screaming at a brick wall here.

I'm glad that you have firmly established that your vision of the BBA is one where we all are polite to each other in public, and just ignore the crap people do to each other behind the scenes.

Of course, I'm just assuming that's what you mean. I could be wrong, but since you seem to be refusing to actually address of even respond to the questions being posed about how we treat each other is NOT just what we say on public forums, I have to infer this.

I give up. Continue to treat other humans like shit, people. The powers that be don't care as long as it doesn't create a public headache. They in fact think it's a great feature of a human league. Humans being jackass to other humans. Best thing about interacting with other people.
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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by recte44 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:35 pm

I understand the frustration but every deal has to start somewhere. I think the biggest frustration I sense from everyone happens when we see people accept the first offer that comes in. And I'll agree with that- you should never, ever accept the first offer unless it's one of those "first reply gets him" kind of deals.

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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by recte44 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:35 pm

I think I'll do a podcast entitled "The Etiquette Of Trading".

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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by Ted » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:46 pm

recte44 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:35 pm
I understand the frustration but every deal has to start somewhere. I think the biggest frustration I sense from everyone happens when we see people accept the first offer that comes in. And I'll agree with that- you should never, ever accept the first offer unless it's one of those "first reply gets him" kind of deals.
I disagree with you entirely here. I've had just about every trade I've made within one or two offers. Because I offer honest offers. I don't try to screw people. The idea that you shouldn't accept the first offer means that you EXPECT people to lowball you and are okay with that culture. ALL offers shoudl be genuine. ALL of them. I don't know how else to say it. A "Don't accept the first offer" attitude is an admission that the first offers made ARE in fact disingenuous and attempts to pull on over on someone.
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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by RonCo » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:53 pm

I think the most important thing about accepting a deal is that the GM understand what they are trying to accomplish with it. I've certainly had deals where I knew I was giving away value, but where the trade resulted in my team getting closer to what I wanted to accomplish. Sometimes the first offer is great, other times it takes more discussion. Sometimes you decide to run a public auction. But in the end it all comes down to whether a deal helps you accomplish a goal.

In that light, the best thing to do is assume that offers are made in good faith. The constitution already touches on how to handle those offers you don't like.
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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by RonCo » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:56 pm

There will be people here who chuckle at this comment, I'm sure, but I generally spend time asking myself "how does this offer help the other team," and "if I were in their shoes, would I do it?" If the answer is yes to both, I make the offer. I do admit that other GMs often don't assess talent and situations like I do, though, so I shrug and move on.
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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by Bumstead » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:00 pm

RonCo wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:53 pm
In that light, the best thing to do is assume that offers are made in good faith.
This is a bad idea in many cases. In some cases, when certain GM's make an (not necessarily this league) offer, there's not much of a chance I will even consider it. Sometimes it's better to just not deal with certain GM's and that's a fact. Harsh? Maybe. Good advice? Absolutely! Every GM in a league has their opportunity with me to be respectful to the value of my players until they prove to be disrespectful to my knowledge of the value of my players. I can't say I've ruled anybody out in this league, but I'm definitely leery of a few.

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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by RonCo » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:03 pm

Perhaps "assume" is off a bit. But one can still respond as if they've been so made.
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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by Bumstead » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:05 pm

RonCo wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:03 pm
Perhaps "assume" is off a bit. But one can still respond as if they've been so made.
Obviously saying: "No thanks, I'm not interested" is the least I could do.

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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by agrudez » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:33 pm

Assume it the first time. Maybe even assume it the second time. At a certain point, though, track records get established and the benefit of the doubt stops holding weight. Those that have been around awhile know others and are, in turn, known by others. People earn their reputations. I've seen them earned real time when different GMs PM me almost verbatim complaints as others about certain GMs. That *should* be the ultimate result of people participating as sharks - first: recognition, second: denunciation, third; ostracization. Play shitty games, win shitty prizes - that's my goal. Unfortunately, it obviously hasn't happened yet - and probably won't, with continual efforts to sweep things under the rug.
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Re: What is used for salary cap overage?

Post by Ted » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:54 pm

RonCo wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:03 pm
Perhaps "assume" is off a bit. But one can still respond as if they've been so made.
Disagree with both statements. Assuming offers are coming in are in good faith when they are not is how you get screwed. It's not "a bit" off. it's flat out wrong. I'd love to operate in an environment where you can do that. This is not one. If you need proof, I can start posting PM's.

Responding as though these offers are fair does nothing to address the issue. It encourages bad behavior.

This statement is akin to saying "Assume people trying to mug you are not doing so." Okay, that's a bit off. But respond as though they are not trying to mug you.

It's completely wrong. It encourages mugging. I don't know why this is such a hard thing for people to wrap their minds around.
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