Curious About the Umeba Changes

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Curious About the Umeba Changes

Post by ca13 » Mon May 25, 2020 9:54 am

I'm not complaining, I just like to understand what is going on. Just trying to get a handle on all the changes to the league I just joined.

I don't think I missed any forum threads or slack conversations. I did listen to the podcast but I still have questions. Also, regarding that, while its fun, I'm not sure podcasts are the best way to release explanations of changes, especially when there are a bunch. While I fully plan to participate in writing, talking to other GMs, etc, I don't know about podcasts. I'm not a person who really listens to them at all. I don't do much where I can split my attention. So listening to a 40 minute podcast to find out what is going on and most of it isn't about your league isn't the most fun.

The big question for me is about the salary cap. I heard the reason for raising it, but it seems like it's only half the issue. Last year, only one team made enough money to spend to the new cap. No team this year has a budget that would allow them to spend to it. It seems like we just became essentially an uncapped league where the team that makes the most money has an advantage. The top team made almost twice as much as the last place team last season. Their budget is 50% higher for 2043. Not complaining. I just don't understand how this helps and would like to. Also, if our cap keeps increasing, won't we eventually just siphon off actual BBA talent that you want in your league during the normal FA period?

I like the idea of a rookie league, especially as I had an A ball team of all teenagers that was getting clobbered by other teams who had 24 year old A ball teams. If other GMs do the same thing with rookie ball as they do with their A team though (stock it with overage players) does this help that problem? Is there a way to set age limits for certain levels?

The college league feeding the UMEBA is great. We really needed that, thanks.

As for the expansion, it will be nice to play some different teams. Is there a plan for the eventual size of the UMEBA?

Is there any plan to address the rule 7? It seems like a constant gripe over here when I'm in trade talks with GMs is a problem figuring out how to value our 80 grade prospects who we will get for 4 seasons and lose for one BBA 40 or 45 grade player.


One last thought.

I bet there's lots of things I don't even know about in running a league. Again, I'm just curious. I don't want to speak for anyone else, but it just seems like there's a disconnect between the UMEBA and the BBA management. I do think our concerns are being addressed, but goes:
Lots of griping from UMEBA.
Assurances from the BBA it's being looked at.
No further communication.
Announcement of changes.

It just seems like maybe some back and forth discussion or maybe a rep from the UMEBA that is in charge of talking to Recte or the GB and then keeping us in the loop would be good.

Thanks for all the hard work.

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Re: Curious About the Umeba Changes

Post by Lane » Mon May 25, 2020 10:14 am

Summary was posted here: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=33868
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Re: Curious About the Umeba Changes

Post by usnspecialist » Mon May 25, 2020 10:20 am

Lane wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 10:14 am
Summary was posted here: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=33868
I think chuck knows what changes were made, just wondering what the rationale was in some cases.
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Re: Curious About the Umeba Changes

Post by jleddy » Mon May 25, 2020 10:44 am

Re: UMEBA updates
Yes, the UMEBA updates (expansion, salary cap increase, additional farm club, more draft rounds) were announced in a podcast but it was also mentioned shortly thereafter in the League Announcements sub-forum and Constitution update.

Re: Salary cap
Budgets will vary from team to team based on several factors (market size, success or failure to generate revenue, ownership, payroll year-to-year, team success, etc.)...it's like that in the BBA and will be similar in the UMEBA."The team that makes the most money has an advantage" is somewhat true, however generating revenue is as important in the game as wins and losses over the long haul. The salary cap helps to even the field as much as possible. But if you look at Edmonton, one of the top two or three franchises over the last five years, they continue to have a budget below the salary cap and extremely low fan interest and they still make it work. Twin Cities had the second-lowest budget and made the playoffs. These nuances from team-to-team is part of the fun challenge in a league. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Recte isn't done setting up things, like raising UMEBA budgets to be closer to the cap or if this will be something the game with organically do in the next few years.

Re: Loss of BBA talent
Yes, the UMEBA will have an even better chance to landing BBA talent. They did so last year with the bump in league prestige and more money to play with will do the same. With the boon of young talent in the BBA due to a few super drafts, I think thinning out the talent pool is going to be fascinating and make GMs have to work harder in many ways: pay more attention to waivers and Rule 5, draft better, figure out platoons, etc. The BBA's loss (and I really don't see it that way, just a change in player pool dynamics) is the UMEBA's gain.

Re: Minors
Similar to the salary cap vs. budget, I see this sorted out over several seasons as well. If you want to start a 28 year old in UMEBA Single A, go for it. He's likely not going to develop further and you're doing a disservice to younger players who may develop. Also I don't think a handful of players who are likely "too old" in the minors is going to drastically stunt development growth for opposing players. Also the new changes in the development and aging curves should help in this as well. That said, it is something the GB will think about however this could all be moot within two or three seasons with the new college feeder league and the addition of five more rounds in the draft.

Re: UMEBA size
I think the UMEBA will continue to slowly grow organically, based on demand and league participation. I may be speaking out of turn but I don't see it becoming quite the size of the BBA at 30-32 teams unless everyone wants to chip in and help pay for blood pressure medication for Recte, but a few more teams in the next game-time decade isn't out of the question. As for "playing more teams", we went away from interleague play in the BBA a few years ago so I'm guessing that will still be the case in the UMEBA. The expansion in each division/league this upcoming season will help mix it up.

Re: Rule 7
I can say that Rule 6 and Rule 7 are both being actively discussed by the GB. I'm guessing any changes will be addressed prior to the 2044 season.

Re: UMEBA/BBA disconnect
I was named UMEBA Ambassador last year and this was mentioned on the boards prior to you joining the league. I can assist as best I can with any questions or concerns!
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Re: Curious About the Umeba Changes

Post by Clayman » Mon May 25, 2020 11:14 am

My view.
ca13 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 9:54 am
I'm not complaining, I just like to understand what is going on. Just trying to get a handle on all the changes to the league I just joined.
We are pretty much all new to the UMEBA, I know we had a couple of GMs return but not sure if they were ever in the UMEBA before, if they weren't at least 5 joined the UMEBA ranks after me and 2042 was my first season.
ca13 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 9:54 am
I don't think I missed any forum threads or slack conversations. I did listen to the podcast but I still have questions. Also, regarding that, while its fun, I'm not sure podcasts are the best way to release explanations of changes, especially when there are a bunch. While I fully plan to participate in writing, talking to other GMs, etc, I don't know about podcasts. I'm not a person who really listens to them at all. I don't do much where I can split my attention. So listening to a 40 minute podcast to find out what is going on and most of it isn't about your league isn't the most fun.
You missed my griping, do you live in a bubble :D I like the podcasts specially if there UMEBA related. I may listen a BBA one but I always listen one if it's tagged UMEBA.

I'd like to add, I think Ron does a great job with them. I don't listen them all but I've never finished one and thought "that was a waste of time". The ones with Matt are a favourite, gives you an insight into the Brewster and were he wants to go with it. I actually respect him more after listening him on the podcasts.
ca13 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 9:54 am
The big question for me is about the salary cap. I heard the reason for raising it, but it seems like it's only half the issue. Last year, only one team made enough money to spend to the new cap. No team this year has a budget that would allow them to spend to it. It seems like we just became essentially an uncapped league where the team that makes the most money has an advantage. The top team made almost twice as much as the last place team last season. Their budget is 50% higher for 2043. Not complaining. I just don't understand how this helps and would like to. Also, if our cap keeps increasing, won't we eventually just siphon off actual BBA talent that you want in your league during the normal FA period?
You can raise your budget with pp, top of my head 10pp = $10m increase in budget. There are ex BBA players in FA who would rather play in the UMEBA than the BBA.
ca13 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 9:54 am
I like the idea of a rookie league, especially as I had an A ball team of all teenagers that was getting clobbered by other teams who had 24 year old A ball teams. If other GMs do the same thing with rookie ball as they do with their A team though (stock it with overage players) does this help that problem? Is there a way to set age limits for certain levels?
Desperately needed a rookie league with the "nappy generation" we were drafting, there is a way I know other leagues put restrictions on age. You could do it yourself, something I intend doing this season.

AAA - Any age.
AA - 24 limit
A - 22 limit
R - 20 limit

Obviously a soft limit but I'm thinking unless I stockpile which I don't intend on doing, a 24 year old should not be in rookie ball
ca13 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 9:54 am
The college league feeding the UMEBA is great. We really needed that, thanks.
100% with you on that.
ca13 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 9:54 am
As for the expansion, it will be nice to play some different teams. Is there a plan for the eventual size of the UMEBA?


Not heard of one, personally unless there's a big boom on the waiting list I'd hope there'd be no expansion until 2045 or maybe the season after for the 10th season, however I'm not a fan of odd numbered divisions/leagues.
ca13 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 9:54 am
Is there any plan to address the rule 7? It seems like a constant gripe over here when I'm in trade talks with GMs is a problem figuring out how to value our 80 grade prospects who we will get for 4 seasons and lose for one BBA 40 or 45 grade player.


There is supposedly talk on higher compensation, personally be glad if it's scraped. I'd like a "working relation" concept with the BBA were they send a rookie or two to a UMEBA team to gain experience. Bit like a rule 5 they have to play in the majors and they play there for a season at least, the BBA team as give notice the player will be returning to his BBA team, maybe replace the FBL is it?

ca13 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 9:54 am
One last thought.

I bet there's lots of things I don't even know about in running a league. Again, I'm just curious. I don't want to speak for anyone else, but it just seems like there's a disconnect between the UMEBA and the BBA management. I do think our concerns are being addressed, but goes:
Lots of griping from UMEBA.

Assurances from the BBA it's being looked at.
No further communication.
Announcement of changes.

It just seems like maybe some back and forth discussion or maybe a rep from the UMEBA that is in charge of talking to Recte or the GB and then keeping us in the loop would be good.

Thanks for all the hard work.
We have a UMEBA Ambassador in Joe - Boise GM, I would like a response from the board on the lines of "we are looking to bring that in next season", "we are looking at maybe a season or two" or even "something not on our radar at the moment".

I do wish we as a league would talk more, I know with work, lockdown, time difference it can be difficult but the UMEBA slack channel can be quiet for days. I'd also like more rivalries built up, not nasty stuff but a bit of banter.
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Re: Curious About the Umeba Changes

Post by RonCo » Mon May 25, 2020 11:25 am

Speaking for myself, the "griping" is helpful in many ways, so don't stop. But also realize we:

1) Are building this from scratch as we go
2) Are all human beings living lives outside here. :)
3) Want the UMEBA to be awesome
4) Are balancing change with pace -- too much change at a time is hard

I expect the UMEBA to be dialed in a bit more every year (or two) based on feedback from the members of the league and the general stability of where we are at.

Regarding podcasts -- I'd love to get a UMEBA-specific thread going.
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Re: Curious About the Umeba Changes

Post by ca13 » Mon May 25, 2020 11:31 am

Yeah, sorry for not being clear. I read all the forum threads and looked though slack and listened to the podcast before posting my questions, but thanks anyway.

I think you guys got most of my questions. Thanks.

I'm still rather concerned about the salary cap. Given that at the current time, none of use have the revenue to get to the cap, are we now in a "earn and spend PP to win" phase? I'm not really interested in being in a league where the path to winning is spamming articles. Also, if I'd known that earning a lot more PP last year to covert to cash and budget would dramatically increase my chances to win this year, that would have helped. 15 mil is roughly three of four 4 or 5 WAR players at current UMEBA salaries. It's pretty unarguable that the GMs who earned more PP and can now convert it to cash and budget have a a huge advantage for 2043, as none of us currently have the revenue to spend to the current cap.

Should I expect to be able to make enough money in the future to spend to the cap without earning 100 PP every season? My team made probably 15 mil less than would be required to spend to the 55 mil cap last season. How do I go about making more money? Bigger stadium? Higher ticket prices? I packed my stadium last year, so I can probably manage to raise revenue for 2044 some, unless I get clobbered by richer teams in 2043 and my fan interest tanks.

I understand the comments about managing your finances being a big part of the game. I expected to have to do it. I'm fine with that. But we are currently in a situation because of the sudden cap increase above the revenue mark for EVERY team in the UMEBA where spending PP is the only way to impact the upcoming season. So 2043 is basically pay to win, as far as I can tell. Or at least write to win. I'm not trying to be a nuisance, but that really doesn't sit well to me as that's not how the participation system was advertised when I signed up. This isn't a deal breaker. And I'm really not trying to be a jerk. Changes always come with unforeseen consequences and maybe this just is one.
Last edited by ca13 on Mon May 25, 2020 12:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Curious About the Umeba Changes

Post by RonCo » Mon May 25, 2020 11:31 am

I've also got to say that in this world where the OOTP community is constantly worrying that online leagues are dying, I think it's so much more fun to be having the problems of figuring out how to deal with growing pains.

It does take a lot of communication, though, and I'll try to do better at that both across the BBA and in working with Joe to keep the UMEBA in lock-step.
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Re: Curious About the Umeba Changes

Post by RonCo » Mon May 25, 2020 11:38 am

ca13 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 11:31 am
But we are currently in a situation because of the sudden cap increase above the revenue mark for EVERY team in the UMEBA where spending PP is the only way to impact the upcoming season. So 2043 is basically pay to win, as far as I can tell. Or at least write to win. I'm not trying to be a nuisance, but that really doesn't sit well to me as that's not how the participation system was advertised when I signed up. This isn't a deal breaker. And I'm really not trying to be a jerk. Changes always come with unforeseen consequences and maybe this just is one.
That's interesting. I think that's an unexpected consequence of the salary cap raise. I know I didn't think about it, anyway. And it didn't cross my mind when it was discussed. Maybe I missed something.

And I agree with your concern about "write to win." The PPT system is supposed to be there to help GMs feel like they can mold their team a little, but not to be a "you must do it or lose competitive advantage" thing. So that part is no good.
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Re: Curious About the Umeba Changes

Post by recte44 » Mon May 25, 2020 7:44 pm

Also, please note that I am NOT finished making the financial changes. I am also going to be editing each teams Media Revenues and budgets so they are all on an even starting point.

The twelve team configuration is likely the max for the UMEBA.

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Re: Curious About the Umeba Changes

Post by Dington » Tue May 26, 2020 10:18 am

recte44 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 7:44 pm
Also, please note that I am NOT finished making the financial changes. I am also going to be editing each teams Media Revenues and budgets so they are all on an even starting point.

The twelve team configuration is likely the max for the UMEBA.
All UMEBA budgets will be even to start 2043? Seems unfair to teams to who built their clubs around creating budget space. Or is it on a scale? There's no way Kuwait City should have the same budget as other winning teams, but I'll take it!
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Re: Curious About the Umeba Changes

Post by RonCo » Tue May 26, 2020 2:37 pm

If we bump media contracts, budgets should be bumped an equal amount just to reflect additional revenue that the owners didn't expect (it says all owners agree to put cash into their teams). But that's different from "equalizing" budgets.

I think there are some other things we could look at, too.

I do think it's important to limit the idea of "more PPT wins." PPT influences are not supposed to be that kid of strong. :)
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Re: Curious About the Umeba Changes

Post by johnd2442 » Wed May 27, 2020 2:03 pm

Thank you so much for this thread, Chuck. And for your responses Ron. I have many concerns about the UMEBA like Chuck, but seeing that I really tailed off as the season went on because I couldn't keep up with four sims, and it was my first season, I'll shut up and see what happens in 2043 and hopefully I won't be as overwhelmed with three sims per week.
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