Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by RonCo » Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:23 am

I'm also fine if you want to vote for Rhodes due to what I've come to call his "narrative," which is probably closer to Aaron's comment about old-school baseball folks. A Hall of Fame is what we mean when we point to it, and it is true that Dusty Rhodes is a very famous player for his unique skill. That's really why I pointed to Zebidiiah Williams, upstream. Williams dominated the SB skill for most of BBA history until Mons Raider came along.

Williams had great narrative, too. Daring stealer, top of existence talent for his time. The newspapers had to be full of his exploits.

Williams had 1,811 singles (a lot less that Rhodes), but 732 walks ( a lot more than Rhodes), and he turned 1,185 of those into extra bases. This, along with a better than average glove at a key defensive position, is why Williams out-valued Rhodes by a score of 40.1 WAR to 37.1 in careers of the same length. Williams blew away a top statistical category (and stole bases at a 78% rate, making those steals actually valuable). Rhodes, as good as he is at hitting singles, will never have been at the very top of the batting average chart all-time (like Williams was). So if you value bring an all-time leader, which again is fine, why was Williams not included either originally or when the Veteran's committee tried to push him through again just recently?

Why is Rhodes a lock, when Williams--who was at least as worthy--was locked out twice.
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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by Ted » Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:28 am

RonCo wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:23 am
I'm also fine if you want to vote for Rhodes due to what I've come to call his "narrative," which is probably closer to Aaron's comment about old-school baseball folks. A Hall of Fame is what we mean when we point to it, and it is true that Dusty Rhodes is a very famous player for his unique skill. That's really why I pointed to Zebidiiah Williams, upstream. Williams dominated the SB skill for most of BBA history until Mons Raider came along.

Williams had great narrative, too. Daring stealer, top of existence talent for his time. The newspapers had to be full of his exploits.

Williams had 1,811 singles (a lot less that Rhodes), but 732 walks ( a lot more than Rhodes), and he turned 1,185 of those into extra bases. This, along with a better than average glove at a key defensive position, is why Williams out-valued Rhodes by a score of 40.1 WAR to 37.1 in careers of the same length. Williams blew away a top statistical category (and stole bases at a 78% rate, making those steals actually valuable). Rhodes, as good as he is at hitting singles, will never have been at the very top of the batting average chart all-time (like Williams was). So if you value bring an all-time leader, which again is fine, why was Williams not included either originally or when the Veteran's committee tried to push him through again just recently?

Why is Rhodes a lock, when Williams--who was at least as worthy--was locked out twice.
And this is why I'm a value over "fame" guy. Value is pretty easy to see. When we start talking about fame, and unicorns, and being unique, it starts to get really arbitrary.
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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by Ted » Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:29 am

Look at me and Ron agreeing on stuff. Weird ... I'm not sure I like it.

F it.

PUT DUSTY IN!!!!! Ron's a idiot. How dare he slander the great Dusty Rhodes!!!

Okay, I feel better now.
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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by RonCo » Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:33 am

Ted wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:16 am
Yeah, and I'm actually fine too if Rhodes gets in. Sort of. I mean, he is a unicorn. I just don't like the idea of people thinking he should get in based on the value he provided to teams. I can't control what people think obviously, but I can try really hard to convince you of what I believe to be true about how baseball works.
HoF thought experiments are always fun.

We say Rhodes is a unicorn, but really that's only because we've never seen a guy like him in real life. That does not mean one could never happen. The advantage real life has over fiction is that it does not need to be believable. If a Rhodes happens in real life, then that becomes fact. As unlikely as we think such things are, it certainly could happen.

So a question then becomes: if this stat line were to occur, would it get Rhodes into the Hall? The answer in the old days was almost certainly yes. Today, that's not so certain.

I have no problems with the idea of counting stats being a driver, no problem with low-tier (using Chris Wilson's work as my guide) "narrative" voters. I do it myself on occasion. Rhodes is so interesting because of this weirdness: he was great at a visible skill while not adding a -ton- of value on the whole.

I won't be voting for him, though.
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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by RonCo » Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:34 am

Ted wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:29 am
Look at me and Ron agreeing on stuff. Weird ... I'm not sure I like it.

F it.

PUT DUSTY IN!!!!! Ron's a idiot. How dare he slander the great Dusty Rhodes!!!

Okay, I feel better now.
My ploy is working...next argument on the agenda: "Ted should stay away from the BBA!"
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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by RonCo » Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:43 am

At 31.7 WAR, Rhodes would be the 3rd least valuable HoF member, behind:

Dickey Brinkman (C) - 23.1 WAR in 11 years
Willie Mays Hayes (OF) - 29.8 WAR in 8 years

Hayes was an original player who started in 1973 at age 26, so lost a lot of his most valuable years to the league not being in existence.
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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by RonCo » Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:47 am

If Rhodes gets in, he will create a new modern-day low WAR bar. At this point, no modern day player has made it in with less than 43 WAR, that being the aforementioned Jim Wilson. After him we need to go to Ernie Stauffer at 53 WAR.
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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by bcslouck » Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:53 pm

12 years of 200+ hits. Another at 199 and another 2 at 198. The other full season? 190 hits. I don't care if that is mainly singles, that is damn impressive to never have a full season under 190 hits. 2nd most hits in a single season. Highest batting average all-time among 1B. Most hits by a 1B. Also, rarely struck out and despite not walking much, did walk more than he struck out. I don't know, I get the argument on lack of XBH's, but sometimes, when someone does something so well, we should acknowledge it.

To me, him being in wouldn't be watering down either. You're right, he's a unicorn born of the BBA. So why not honor that? A player who may be the best player at getting the bat on the ball on BBA history? A player who was as consistent as you'd ever see? A player with a skill set, as flawed as it may be, we may never see again?
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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by bcslouck » Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:56 pm

Btw folks, look at his postseason line.

.369/.406/.495 (.902) in 79 career games. 13 HR's in almost a half season worth of games. He actually powered up in the most important games.

He gets my vote.
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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by crobillard » Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:12 am

Dusty gets my vote, but not because it is logical. I don't think he should be a lock and it's worth considerable discussion. I think he's such a special and unique hitter that he should be considered, but not based on his stats. There are a lot of comparisons drawn to the MLB players, but I would argue that there is no one in the MLB that was similar to Dusty Rhodes. Maybe that's enough. Also, MLB has definitely sent questionable players to the HOF.

As far as comparisons go, I don't think he's a perfect comparison to any MLB players over the past 50 years. The closest players in the HOF I could find would be a mix of Nellie Fox and Jim Bottomley. Fox was known for getting the bat on the ball for nearly 100% of his plate appearances which I would say is an incredible skill in and of itself. Bottomley is probably a better statistical comparison although the flaw with it is the same with Gwynn. Rhodes never hit doubles or triples.

Point is, if we're going to point to the MLB than I think you should look at the type of players that made it to the HOF in the MLB. There are definitely worse players than Rhodes and they seem to have voted those players in for some special characteristics and I think Rhodes fulfills that criteria as a special player even if he is not statistically superior in many ways.
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Re: Hall of Fame Candidate Thread: Dusty Rhodes

Post by HerbD » Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:01 pm

Someone is always going to have to be on the bottom. That's how you get the average.
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